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RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:12 pm
by ohioastro
Hello all. I bought DW about a year and half ago; I've been thinking about returning, but the pricing model is relevant to me as well.

There are really two aspects to this: what is normal for the industry, and the particular case of this game.

It really is true that the typical model for games series is that expansions are usually bundled with the core game, and people who already have the prior expansions get a discount. This is true for smaller publishers - for example, Paradox with Europa Universalis, or StarDock with Sins of a Solar Empire. It's also true that the online distributors can get very large audiences for game sales. Endless Space just passed the 110,000 sales mark - it wouldn't surprise me if this is a factor of 10 or more above Distant Worlds. (And it is actually a very fun game in a different style than Distant Worlds. Attacking a game with a very different set of goals, as I see happening in this thread, does not give a favorable impression from the outside.) This is partially style, but also partially cost and accessibility.

However, the bigger reason why the current pricing model has not been commented on much. Selling expansions separately makes sense only if the expansions don't fundamentally alter game play - for example, if they are optional scenarios. The user interface of the base game was panned in virtually all of the few game reviews that I saw. This was fixed in the first expansion. I find it inexplicable that the original flawed interface is still available separately. This gives newcomers to an already complex game a very unfriendly introduction. And it's completely needless. Matrix should bundle the DW expansions with the base game for the same reason that companies don't charge for post-release patches.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:52 pm
by Bleek
Great post.

I never played the original without Shakturi expansion, and so what you say makes the case for a discount even more apparent!

The biggest driving force for a sale of a game is price, from a survey of over 1,000 UK gamers nearly 40% said they made a purchase only when the price fell below the RRP and not on the release at full price. The second most important element was what their fellow gamers recommended and not particularly the opinions of publications/reviewers.

On one hand DW has it covered with great user reviews and a loyal, but small, fanbase. Yet on the other hand it has a throttling pricing structure that doesn't budge and doesn't do anything to entice new players to the fold.

"But Bleek you already have the game, what do you care!!!"

Why do I care? Because the more people that buy DW, the more development it gets, the longer it stays around and the more we get to enjoy it. It also means a DW2 could be better funded and improve on an already stellar game to produce something awesome.

So for me, appropriate pricing and fresh blood is very important (dare I say critical) to my long term involvement with DW and yours too!

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:56 pm
by Algoritm
As I said before if $10 or $20 extra dollars really matters that much, you should not be buying ANY games at all . If you have a set budget for games and you would rather get 2-3 games (that most likely will not be as good imho) versus DW, then that is ok. Nothing wrong about that. But suggesting that Matrix change its business model because a number of people are complaining about the cost is not going to happen.

While some people don't care about spending a lot more for something they really want, it isn't the case for everyone. Thankfully, a lot of people spend their money sensibly and that doesn't just go for games (think about sub-primes...)

DW may be better than 2 or 3 other cheaper games of the same type combined, but it doesn't justify the base game price, especially when you consider the release date and real value of the base game alone.

Let's turn things around for a change, have matrix made a return on investment from this game? I dearly hope so. In that case, would bundling it and lowering the price make them go bankrupt? No

And if you think that lowering the price will not encourage people to buy the game, you are wrong. There are plenty of people like me who are waiting for the occasion to get their hands on this game.

Price matters, and saying otherwise is a either a lie or an excuse to justify spending more. That is my opinion.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:19 pm
by Numdydar
All these are good points Algoritm. However, as I mentioned before, they have a legal contarct with the developer. So unlees they can renegoicate the contract the price structure will be fixed. So bundling, price reductions, etc. will all be spelled out in the contract. So this is not something Matirx can do on their own. So if the developer does not want the price to change, then there is NOTHING matrix can do. So unless Code Force people are reading this thread, nothing is going to change.

For all we know, Matrix may have already had discussions with Code Force about the price structure and Code Force said No. Of course the reverse could also be true too, but I doubt it as Matrix is just the distributor. So they would be willing to sell the product for whatever price the developer wanted as long as Matrix got the cut they wanted.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:22 am
by jpwrunyan
ORIGINAL: Kordanor

Today I listened to Three Moves Ahead Podcast. A great strategy game podcast and this time they talked about Endless Space.
Google for "three moves ahead 176" as I am not allowed to link pages yet.

What has this to do with Distant Worlds? Well, they mention the game one time. And guess why? To make fun of it's insane price.
Check 29:00 til 30:00 for that.

Is this the one best thing to be known for?

Rolls-Royce

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:26 pm
by Algoritm
It bugs me cause I know that you're right about this Numdydar, whether I'm happy or not about it.

I'm actually starting to think that there may be a sale programmed at the end of this year cause I've noticed the price slowly creeping up lately, which probably means that a price cut will result in the game being same price it was a few months back... ahhhhh the art of making people spend their money while being happy about it

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:52 am
by Talon_XBMCX
ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

ORIGINAL: Panman

I find it interesting that these discussions dont come up for games like War in the East or War in the Pacific.


My guess is that that is, partly, because those games don't have two expansions, correct? But you do make a good point.


WitE does have an expansion.

I don't buy the niche vs mainstream mentality. Sure, DW has something in common with other 4x space games ... just like HOI has things in common with WitE and WitP. Shouldn't that make those titles more mainstream? Quality and developer freedom are worth the value. There is a fantasy 4x game by another distributor that sells for around $55 US and has been at that price level since 2006. Matrix is not the only distributor that doesn't reduce prices just because a title is a few years old.

I'm happy DW is around and will continue to support the developer. I am not a fan of steam and regret the day any title goes solely to that distribution service as that is the day I no longer support the title.


RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:03 am
by malkuth74
Since this forum is pretty dead still surprised to see this thread going.

Bundle your product into 1 package for 40 dollars and you will get more sales. Its pretty simple.

The reason guys like me and others have all the games is because I bought the game when it first came out.. Bought the 2nd expansion when it first came out... And bought the third expansion when it first came out.

But I bought them at seperate times.

The standard in industry is to bundle packages together. Its how you make money. And this is the only game I have ever purchased from Matrix Games.. And it will be the only one. I even have a 25% coupon I got for an issue I have.. And I wont use it unless you come out with part 4. Thats it.

I don't like matrix games. Don't like their practices... And if you were smart and wanted to expand your company you would bundle the game. The people that spend full price spend it when the game first comes out.. The others wait.. And if it don't go down.. No sale.. Its a simple concept.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:17 pm
by lukaszgwozdz2
ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

ORIGINAL: Panman

I find it interesting that these discussions dont come up for games like War in the East or War in the Pacific.


My guess is that that is, partly, because those games don't have two expansions, correct? But you do make a good point.

At least for me, the reason I'm not complaining about the WitE price (which is incidentally pretty insane at around $80) is that the game appears to be equally insane, requiring me to move hundreds or thousands of units every turn. Although I am a wargamer on occasions, it seems that WitE was not made with me in mind. I *would* be willing to try it out at $30 or less but I'm not holding my breath. WitE is much more of a niche game than DW. I'm fairly sure lots of people who were interested in Endless Space, Sword of the stars etc. would also buy Distant Worlds - if only it was priced like Matrix was actually willing to sell it to the common unwashed masses.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:27 pm
by Talon_XBMCX
ORIGINAL: lukaszg
if only it was priced like Matrix was actually willing to sell it to the common unwashed masses.

Maybe that's not their target market? If it takes 3,4, or 5 additional sales from the masses to make up for the one discriminating gamer, why not just keep your focus there? You can't please everyone ... so adding more users is really just going to make it difficult for the game to succeed. ;-)


All of the war game sites I visit and support (Matrix, Shrapnel, Battlefront, HPS, John Tiller to name but a few) all have the same pricing structure and format. Matrix isn't the only distributor that follows this format.

How many console gamers shell out $60 US every year for their favorite sports title?



RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:20 am
by Bleek
DW isn't a console game.

DW isn't a blockbuster sports title.

DW isn't niche (there are plenty of 4X games with large fanbases).

These goal posts move around a lot!

The fact of the matter is, all of the DW competitors are cheaper and often considerably so.

The pricing is wrong, it's that simple.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:21 am
by Bleek
ORIGINAL: malkuth74

Since this forum is pretty dead still surprised to see this thread going.

Bundle your product into 1 package for 40 dollars and you will get more sales. Its pretty simple.

The forum is quiet because of the price.

And you're right about the bundle, that would inject some life in to the forum and the game.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:11 pm
by Talon_XBMCX
Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:32 am
by lukaszgwozdz2
ORIGINAL: Panman

Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games

High price is not enough to make something a luxury item. In addition to the price, luxury items have a) brand recognition and b) higher than average quality. DW has neither of these - while I'm willing to grant DW ambitious design, reading the forums it does seem to have more than its fair share of interface, design and documentation problems. If you really like car analogies, a better one would be Lotus - exotic niche car for driving enthusiasts, unfortunately made out of cardboard and held together by paint and chewing gum.

But you're missing the point we've been making to begin with - DW is not an exotic niche game like say War in the East. There's plenty of substitutes priced much more reasonably. Not exact substitutes but close enough. And when you're Lotus and Toyota makes essentially the same car for 1/5th of the price, you're in trouble.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:46 am
by Bleek
ORIGINAL: Panman

Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games

You're wrong and missed the point by a country mile.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:13 pm
by Gandalf
ORIGINAL: Bleek

ORIGINAL: Panman

Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games

You're wrong and missed the point by a country mile.

Actually, he's right on for now. Once a better 4x space game comes out (i.e. competition) that is just as good and is substantially cheaper, the situation will probably change. For now, the owner/developer is probably getting a satisfactory enough financial return that he does not feel there is a need to drop the price whether you as a prospective buyer are miffed or not.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:16 pm
by towerbooks3192
Just got the game and I have to admit that the price is a bit scary and it is the highest I have spent on a space 4x game however I must say that it was well worth it and I could never like my old space 4x games ever again because IMHO this is the deepest one I got and well worth the 80$ with vanilla and the 2 expansions

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:04 pm
by Algoritm
A new expansion is coming out soon. I'm just waiting to see if the lot will be bundled, or if the base game's price will go down (which would more than make sense by now).

If it does, I'll definatly buy it. If not, I'll forget the game ever existed... and I never regret my choices.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:29 pm
by WoodMan
They did a bundle with the last one, and also they seem to have a sale every November. You had to add all items to the trolley and then you get the discount, so there wasn't an actual "bundle item" to select.

RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:57 am
by Gandalf
ORIGINAL: Algoritm

A new expansion is coming out soon. I'm just waiting to see if the lot will be bundled, or if the base game's price will go down (which would more than make sense by now).

If it does, I'll definatly buy it. If not, I'll forget the game ever existed... and I never regret my choices.

The least you can do when you bold/emphasize a word is to spell check it. It definitely detracts from your point.