Matrix Games Forums

WitW is not easy for the Axis

It is interesting to see opinions so varied.
I would have thought most people view the game presently as tilted toward the Axis.

Seminole, I think the Allied player requires more skill and most of our playerbase is still acquiring that skill. I think when people learn how to use tactical bombers, naval bombers and TF's to their best advantage we will see this shift.

+2! (That mean's +1 twice D2)[:D]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: JayTac

So which game would you guys recommend? AE or WitW? I'm mainly just looking for strategic depth.

AE and it's not even close.

I have both, and I finally surrendered to WITW. Just didn't enjoy it. Back to WITPAE which is likely far more complicated and remains a much better playing experience.

Just one man's opinion.

Very very much depends. AE requires much more micromanagement, is much larger (and slower). If you find WitW complex and daunting, I would not touch AE if I were you.

To give an example - major invasion in WitW: 5 ampib TF, with 5 divisions (one each). An AS air directive, some GA ones, and a GS one. Some follow up troops and HQs. A couple of air drops. Maybe 25 'counters', and some air stuff. Prep is limited to setting amphib unit target, and waiting some turns.

Comparable invasion in AE: 5 amphib TFs, made up of transports for your 5 assault divs, and escorts (say 15 ships per TF, which you have to create). Follow up troops in maybe 5 more. Supply convoys for build up (bearing in mind daily turns). Then the covering forces, maybe 4-5 more carrier and battleship TFs. Then the air support, which you have to order by base (so basing is much more important than in WitW, where range is the only real issue assuming you have supplies, since coordination is automatic). Prep consists of getting all the ships to appropriate ports, with necessary supplies. Getting a/c ditto. Assault troops ditto. Probably hundreds of units in 25 TFs maybe...

AE is a different game, and anyone who can't cope with WitW will drown (big time). On the other hand, if you know the difference between a Dido, and a Town batch 3 (or even a 4 turret Dido and a 5 turret one), or the improvements made during Texas' major refit, or like to remember than you can't launch torpedo equipped air strikes from a base with an 'r' in the name unless the date is odd, AE wins straight off. (Joking! I just cant remember the base rules for stocking Torps offhand)

For strategic depth, I think it is easy not to be able to see the wood for the trees in AE, and mistakes in tactics/unit usage will tend to dominate over strategic brilliance. Having said which, lovely system, but then again, I know that the RN could only refuel ships via trailing hose until 1945 and hence is over rated for strategic reach in AE, so AE is not detailed enough for me! [;)]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite
Comparable invasion in AE: 5 amphib TFs, made up of transports for your 5 assault divs, and escorts (say 15 ships per TF, which you have to create). Follow up troops in maybe 5 more. Supply convoys for build up (bearing in mind daily turns). Then the covering forces, maybe 4-5 more carrier and battleship TFs. Then the air support, which you have to order by base (so basing is much more important than in WitW, where range is the only real issue assuming you have supplies, since coordination is automatic). Prep consists of getting all the ships to appropriate ports, with necessary supplies. Getting a/c ditto. Assault troops ditto. Probably hundreds of units in 25 TFs maybe...

Note to self: never, EVER, buy WitP...

I wish I could find a game that I could play for years with utter enjoyment, but it doesn't sound like WitP is it!

HMSWarspite - a nice list for the WitW invasion except you forgot the Naval Interdiction missions. Forget those and go home cause the Axis are going to push you back into the sea.

WitP AE is a higher detail oriented game than WitW (yes, hard to believe for some). If you are just starting into these types of games - go War in the West first. If you like it and find it becomes 'too easy' after you are familiar with it, then get WitP AE. I have both and they both do a great job of scratching my operational/strategic decision itch but WitW is a MUCH faster game to play!

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

HMSWarspite - a nice list for the WitW invasion except you forgot the Naval Interdiction missions. Forget those and go home cause the Axis are going to push you back into the sea.

WitP AE is a higher detail oriented game than WitW (yes, hard to believe for some). If you are just starting into these types of games - go War in the West first. If you like it and find it becomes 'too easy' after you are familiar with it, then get WitP AE. I have both and they both do a great job of scratching my operational/strategic decision itch but WitW is a MUCH faster game to play!

Yep, it's a fair cop, I did. Don't go anywhere without a few NI, unless you really are in your own back yard and auto patrol will do it (I can get 2/3 of the Western Med at 3+ NI on auto - but GE can always create a little hot spot if you don't sock them in with a specific NI or 2.

Thanks for the feedback and sorry to derail the thread a bit. But, at least something positive came of it as I ended up buying WitP AE. I gotta say though that I'm a little disappointed in the level of control over the combat. I can't prioritize targets, there's minimal control over subs from what I can tell, no smoke screens, no formations, can't run simultaneous recons or CAP at multiple altitudes with the same aircraft. Among other things makes me feel like I'm stuck handling all of the logistics while the AI handles the more glamorous parts. Still a fun game though, the grand strategical elements are definitely interesting.

For 30 years, I've bought most of Gary Grigsby's wargames.

I didn't bought WITP, maybe should I give it a try.

WITE is my best wargame ever bought. I spent thousands of hours on it.

I bought WITW in february, worked the rules, played twice Cobra and gave up.... I didn't find the fun I immediatly got in WITE.

Now I'm back on WITE.

But I will always thank 2by3 for the work they do on their different games (new or released for years)

Stef

ORIGINAL: meklore61

Get both! That way you don't have to choose![:D] I have poor impulse control myself when it comes to strategic games. AE is good, but it's very time consuming and it takes years to finish a MP game. WitW has a higher learning curve in some respects due to having evolved from AE, but if your looking for deep this is the game. The replayability for the allies is great, but the axis are sort of stuck responding to what the allies do. Once the balance issues with the EF box are better, I like what if scenarios, and the EF box can give you a pretty good punch, but it's like a candy store now that has no real cost until you pull the entire front.

Well I held out for a bit, but I bought both now [:D]
Really enjoying WitW, the logistics system might be a bit straight forward in comparison to AE, but the strategical elements are just as good.

WITP AE is a game you can play for years. It may not be to your taste, but if it is, you can drown in it.

Cary

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

WITP AE is a game you can play for years. It may not be to your taste, but if it it, you can drown in it.

Cary

I'm drowning in this game. Way too much detail for me! WitE I love and can get along with it very well. Oh well, you never know until you try?

Well..just a minor thing, but in WitP-AE you can select 1-3 day turns. I usually play with 2-day turns against AI.

I have purchased both AE & WitW and I am waiting a bit for some of the problems to be ironed out with WitW, plus I just am more interested in the pacific theater right now than the western theater.

I like the details in both games, the ambitious level of scope, and the obvious amount of dedication and work that was put into both games by the developers.

I find myself oddly though, liking the interface for AE more than WitW. Even though both games depend on large databases of detail and textual lists for play, for some reason the right hand side-panel interface to WitW, and some other interface details for accessing information and elements of play (especially the air game), I found so frustrating I put the game away after a few weeks of examination, and decided to return to AE - the interface of which seems more natural to me (for the time being).