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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:12 pm
by KWG
Airbase England
Target Normandy
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:29 pm
by KWG
In France the Allies have done all they can to prepare for a German counterattack.
The 22-x hex:
21 Pz
Panzer Lehr
17SS PzGr
23-x hex
1SS Pz
12SS Pz
362 Inf.
Allies had to do a lot of behind the front movement, in order to prepare for the next phase of offenses.
The Fellowship grows stronger as the shadow over the land darkens.
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:00 pm
by Peltonx
Turn 51 VP: 31 Manpower Pool: 40,000 Arm Pts: 1,992,000
WA Loses: 273,000 10,000
GHC Loses: 326,000 37,000
Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.
As with WitE, WitW combat engine is completely Middle Earth.
The real question is when is 2by3 going to over haul the flying pig combat engine and make it historical?
As always I will keep getting the data and posting it until something changes.
Ignoring the data never changes the data, 4 yrs of WitE and still ignoring the data?
Why?
http://www.britannica.com/event/Normand ... n-of/40555
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:23 pm
by Joel Billings
I'm not sure what the 37000 and 10000 numbers represent. Are these the "casualty" numbers reported during combat?
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:55 pm
by Seminole
Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.
Should be judge by a single week, or the campaign as a whole?
Losses to date in your game:
German: 276k
WA: 248k
That's basically .9 Allied losses to every 1 German so far in your campaign...
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:46 am
by LiquidSky
ORIGINAL: Seminole
Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.
Should be judge by a single week, or the campaign as a whole?
Losses to date in your game:
German: 276k
WA: 248k
That's basically .9 Allied losses to every 1 German so far in your campaign...
Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.
So the combat engine is not historical...it is way in favour of the Axis.
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:01 am
by Seminole
Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.
Good point.
Pelton, have you tracked casualties through the game? Where did they stand at the Italian surrender vis-a-vis now?
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:50 am
by Q-Ball
If you are looking at combat loss ratios, you also have to exclude POWs. The reason is most of those don't come from combat. I see the Axis have 80,000 POWs in this game; toss those, and the ratio due to actual shooting is probably worse than 1.2 Allied to 1 German
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:05 am
by loki100
just to help here's some data from my game. T47 is the turn before the landings, T56 is the latest we've played. I've sent this to Pelton in response to a PM but felt a bit more info might help here.
If we include prisoners then losses are equal 80,000 each. If only kia+wia then 50,000 axis vs 77,000 allies.
But, as in WiTE you have to be careful. The game engine treats lightly wounded (the sort of people you can get back to their unit in a week or so as 'disruptions' not coded as losses). We've been over this too many times in the WiTE forum and its got pretty tedious.
On one hand you have sometimes tendentiously selected real world statistics. On the other you have a game that uses losses as a tool to affect the dynamics of the game engine. And treats a large portion of those armies would have recorded as WiA as 'disrupted' (which is quite neat, they are not there in the front lines when the next attack happens but if you have decent supply and leadership they return quite soon)
edit: point is I've been on the defensive for most of this fighting, I'd expect the combat ratio to be in my favour?
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:47 am
by LiquidSky
Here is mine from Turn 69.
I have most of France, I have a line from Lucca to Rimini in Italy.
I also made a few pockets since the combat engine makes it easy for the allies to do so, hence the large number of prisoners.
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:16 pm
by Peltonx
ORIGINAL: Seminole
Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.
Good point.
Pelton, have you tracked casualties through the game? Where did they stand at the Italian surrender vis-a-vis now?
The last 3 turns is what I am tracking.
Basic math lets keep all the homer stuff on the side lines and stick to basic math.
No name calling or threatening to bane people (Red). This is not that hard to track as with WitE
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:21 pm
by Peltonx
ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
Here is mine from Turn 69.
I have most of France, I have a line from Lucca to Rimini in Italy.
I also made a few pockets since the combat engine makes it easy for the allies to do so, hence the large number of prisoners.
Ok bro.
Once allies hit the beaches at Normandy.
I am looking at turn 49+ once KWG invaded.
Total loses from turn 49 to present
Math math math not PC stuff.
What is basic combat ratio - we know WitE is way off vs historical so is WitW combat engine way of also.
If you have historical data post it from June 44 to Jan 45 or historical Normandy as I have.
So far its 1 WA for 3 Germans which is not historical based on my historical data.
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:23 pm
by Peltonx
ORIGINAL: loki100
just to help here's some data from my game. T47 is the turn before the landings, T56 is the latest we've played. I've sent this to Pelton in response to a PM but felt a bit more info might help here.
If we include prisoners then losses are equal 80,000 each. If only kia+wia then 50,000 axis vs 77,000 allies.
But, as in WiTE you have to be careful. The game engine treats lightly wounded (the sort of people you can get back to their unit in a week or so as 'disruptions' not coded as losses). We've been over this too many times in the WiTE forum and its got pretty tedious.
On one hand you have sometimes tendentiously selected real world statistics. On the other you have a game that uses losses as a tool to affect the dynamics of the game engine. And treats a large portion of those armies would have recorded as WiA as 'disrupted' (which is quite neat, they are not there in the front lines when the next attack happens but if you have decent supply and leadership they return quite soon)
edit: point is I've been on the defensive for most of this fighting, I'd expect the combat ratio to be in my favour?
Good data.
So 5 Germans for 8 allies = historical
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:24 pm
by Peltonx
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
If you are looking at combat loss ratios, you also have to exclude POWs. The reason is most of those don't come from combat. I see the Axis have 80,000 POWs in this game; toss those, and the ratio due to actual shooting is probably worse than 1.2 Allied to 1 German
I am looking at zero surrenders in current game.
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:25 pm
by Peltonx
ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
ORIGINAL: Seminole
Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.
Should be judge by a single week, or the campaign as a whole?
Losses to date in your game:
German: 276k
WA: 248k
That's basically .9 Allied losses to every 1 German so far in your campaign...
Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.
So the combat engine is not historical...it is way in favour of the Axis.
Total combat loses for western front bro
Less PC and just the data
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:32 pm
by Peltonx
The the allies invaded and attacked the last 3 turns.
Tring to make this really simply so I don't have to do this for the next 5 months to prove I am right SHHH.
Historical WF ratio = 1 to 1 and its 1 to 3 basic math, something is wrong.
There are zero surrenders ect ect I am talking turn 49 to present. combat only.
Same stuff as WitE, but WitW is less historical then WitE which means 2.0?
I am trending 5 or 10 turn loses not a bunch of Italian surrenders silly pants
In other words German only loses vs WA loses - no surrenders.
So once allies invade France track loses so you have a lose ratio German vs WA
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:12 am
by loki100
Problem is you haven't supplied information about what has happened in your game since the landings, the screen simply shows complete losses across the game. Now there are lots of factors that could affect that and there is no point taking all game losses and then relating them solely to a source about losses in the Normandy campaign.
The three games with data provided all show very different overall losses. So playstyle is clearly having an affect. It maybe that the way you have opted to play this game is giving you higher losses.
also looking at killed/disabled in your game the ratio axis:allied is .9:1 (I'm ignoring surrenders), Liquidsky is showing .75:1 and mine is .75:1 (but with much lower overall losses).
So two games are pretty much with the same ratio (even though its clear that the actual level of fighting is different), your's is the one with the highest German loss ratio. I'd suspect its down to your chosen play style and it maybe that KWG is doing a good job of turning that against you?
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:18 pm
by LiquidSky
I imagine that if you want the Normandy landings to cause historical losses, you have to (at the very least) act historically.
Did you even guard the beaches? Or where they all just a free landing for the allied forces. I would think that if it was a free landing for the allies, the losses would have been a teensy-weensy bit less then the actual historical losses.
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:06 am
by Peltonx
I am talking basic combat after landings.
Basic Normandy loses or for that matter basic combat loses from June 44 to May 45 - surrenders in current game. Most of German loses historically were from POWs at the very end of Normandy during breakout.
We know what the loses were historically, if the ratio is 1 to 3 we know its simply way off nothing close to 1 to 1.
Sure there are factors, but I play all games the same way.
I have 2 games on going and have many from the past.
Combat ratios are a center issue to any game.
As we all know most loses historically were caused by artillery fire, not small arms (WitE) or interdiction from the air (WitW).
Lets keep trending the data.
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:39 am
by Q-Ball
If the loss ratio is off vs. history, something else must be off that is favoring the Germans. Because every game I have played, both sides, the Allied player fails to get into Germany in a meaningful way. I have played experienced WITE players who understand the ground combat engine. I am playing a game as Germany where I have really screwed up a few times and lost over 300,000 to Capture, yet the Wehrmacht is stronger than ever.
If the losses are tamped down, there are too many Germans somewhere. As it is right now, I think the Allies need some help.