Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: mainsworthy

Perelandra67, I hope I can help, here is what I found, if you goto mods and scenarios and download JMass VASL mod for TotH, you will find an ASL type game, the AFVs Tanks etc... have the correct Movement points on the chits eg: 1 point to start engine, 1 point to change direction and 1 point to move a hex on clear ground, you can check this on a blank map with a tank. the infantry move correctly for ASL 4 hexes plus 2 with a leader, plus one if you start and stop on a road, plus 2 double time, the legged units in ASL have 3 numbers FIRE POWER,FIRE RANGE,MORAL, the mod takes the A to H fire-power and converts it to ASL for you, you can check range of fire with the menu to show range, moral is stars converted to ASL.

what all this means is the Mod counters have meaningfull numbers on the chits, you can go to the vassalegine site and download the ASL module(rename it with a zip extention and unzip it) it has all the ASL charts.

Are you aware of what the above means?

TotH values are actually mutated - wholly or in part - from ASL. Fact is: neither the manual nor the developer recognize this, even if the developer MUST know from were the values he used come from.

Let's say that now I have a better understanding as why neither in the manual nor in the program itself we have the actual data used in-game.

Regarding this, I have an open and direct question for the developer: did you use, in part or wholly, data taken from ASL for your game? I'm only asking for a simple answer: yes or no?

And, from what I'm seeing, "extrapolating" the correct data from the program is not a difficult task: only boring and time-consuming. I really don't see why it should fall on the paying public to do this. How this could get past the play testers is beyond me (but, after all, we are talking about a game whose manual shows in the Ordinance Tables that a Panzer IV A has the same stats of a Panther D; so, by now, anything is possible, and, to be honest, I'm getting more and more an unpleasant idea as why everything is so elusive and opaque; I just hope to be proved wrong).

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

Peter, yes that would help SPWaW does this too.

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

If you do this, I'd recommend that it only be allowed on Easy and Normal settings. Players should not have this while playing on the Hard and Very Hard. One is not playing on harder settings if one is using a crutch.

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: mainsworthy

Perelandra67, I hope I can help, here is what I found, if you goto mods and scenarios and download JMass VASL mod for TotH, you will find an ASL type game, the AFVs Tanks etc... have the correct Movement points on the chits eg: 1 point to start engine, 1 point to change direction and 1 point to move a hex on clear ground, you can check this on a blank map with a tank. the infantry move correctly for ASL 4 hexes plus 2 with a leader, plus one if you start and stop on a road, plus 2 double time, the legged units in ASL have 3 numbers FIRE POWER,FIRE RANGE,MORAL, the mod takes the A to H fire-power and converts it to ASL for you, you can check range of fire with the menu to show range, moral is stars converted to ASL.

what all this means is the Mod counters have meaningfull numbers on the chits, you can go to the vassalegine site and download the ASL module(rename it with a zip extention and unzip it) it has all the ASL charts.

Are you aware of what the above means?

TotH values are actually mutated - wholly or in part - from ASL. Fact is: neither the manual nor the developer recognize this, even if the developer MUST know from were the values he used come from.

Let's say that now I have a better understanding as why neither in the manual nor in the program itself we have the actual data used in-game.

Regarding this, I have an open and direct question for the developer: did you use, in part or wholly, data taken from ASL for your game? I'm only asking for a simple answer: yes or no?

And, from what I'm seeing, "extrapolating" the correct data from the program is not a difficult task: only boring and time-consuming. I really don't see why it should fall on the paying public to do this. How this could get past the play testers is beyond me (but, after all, we are talking about a game whose manual shows in the Ordinance Tables that a Panzer IV A has the same stats of a Panther D; so, by now, anything is possible, and, to be honest, I'm getting more and more an unpleasant idea as why everything is so elusive and opaque; I just hope to be proved wrong).

I think I'm not mistakem, that tables and numbers cant be owned by anybody. you cant copyrite a table, eg you cant copyrite a formula - like einstiens theories

great job Peter

ORIGINAL: blackcloud6

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

If you do this, I'd recommend that it only be allowed on Easy and Normal settings. Players should not have this while playing on the Hard and Very Hard. One is not playing on harder settings if one is using a crutch.

Cool, thanks for your feedback!

Peter really enjoying the game. Great idea to add the percentages. Please add something that can tell the player how many movement pts. for a particular move including actual number values over different terrain.So I have an idea if I can reach a particular hex safely and be in a position I would like.

Just one one little thing that is tedious.Less clicking after selection of units to further select them with crtl to move or fire also load saved game from within the game itself without having to exit then re-enter the scenario.

Thanks I haven't gotten to the editor yet but wow that's already seems a huge part of the game with a lot of possibilities for modes.

ORIGINAL: blackcloud6

If you do this, I'd recommend that it only be allowed on Easy and Normal settings. Players should not have this while playing on the Hard and Very Hard. One is not playing on harder settings if one is using a crutch.

Agree very much with this.

Yet players need some help. Rather than a % chance give them a table for terrain protection values. Use letters if you need to. So we should be able to compare firing against a wood building versus an emplaced gun for example.

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

Thanks !! [:)]
This would definitely be a good idea.

ORIGINAL: Gerry

ORIGINAL: blackcloud6

If you do this, I'd recommend that it only be allowed on Easy and Normal settings. Players should not have this while playing on the Hard and Very Hard. One is not playing on harder settings if one is using a crutch.

Agree very much with this.

Yet players need some help. Rather than a % chance give them a table for terrain protection values. Use letters if you need to. So we should be able to compare firing against a wood building versus an emplaced gun for example.

Forcing users to go look up something in a table defeats the entire purpose of adding the tool in. I also disagree heavily that it makes the game "easier" and shouldn't be allowed on the harder settings. Especially if the main difference in the harder game is the command and control rules (at least from what I gather). I'd like to be able to play with them, but I'd also like to be able to play with the command and control rules as well.

Perhaps you can just make it an optional rule (toggle or something), so that those who would like to use it can, and those that don't can't. I know the turn structure would never really support a PBEM, so at worst two players playing hot-seat decide if they want to use it or not. And that way when I play against the AI, I can get a sense.

I think the core of the issue is that the assumption was made somewhere that all players who buy this will have experience in ASL. I see the point that the developer doesn't want it to become a table and math fest. The reason I play games like Lock N'Load or Combat Commander on the tabletop is because I don't have to fiddle with all the table and such in ASL (and, thus, have never actually played ASL). So I when I boot up this game I had NO idea that all infantry units had 4 movement points (even though I guess this is commonly known to ASL players) with leaders giving an extra 2 and roads a further 1. I thought different units might have different values, and it didnt even occur to me to load the game into an empty map to test (which, as posted above is quite tedious).

I don't WANT 100% info about everything so I can math out the exact thing that will happen. I just like a clear idea of what my units can do. The range unit is fine. Movement points left would be helpful, and some sort of description about how ammo works (the description in the manual is really hazy on this as well.. what causes a gun to lose its ROF, and what are the odds that it will happen so I can decide when to take the important shots), and some idea of the odds of a successful attack, or the chance that I'll hurt an enemy. Right now I have 0 idea the odds of my units even damaging my enemies. I don't even know how those damages are inflicted (do 2 pins equal a destroyed?), so it's really hard to make any sort of decisions.

I think The Lock N'Load game from Matrix (which seems to be unsupported now) does it well. I know how many movement points I have left, and when I hover over an enemy, I get a % of the attack being successful. That's really all I need. I know the game was playtested, but I'm curious how many play testers had no ASL experience. Because if the game was designed only for ASL players who wanted a PC experience, that's a niche of a niche of a niche.

I hate to sound negative about the game. The flexible design tools and scenario tools are really fantastic. The ability to, almost effortlessly, make my own maps and scenarios is what got me really excited about the game. The UI has a lot of places it needs to improve, but it's functional and I can deal with that (I'm a wargamer after all, most wargame UIs need a lot of work). I just think if I had a tad more info this would push the game into my top 5 favorites. It has the scale I love, a great tool for me or others to design scenarios, a competent AI... I just need to know what the heck I am doing.

ORIGINAL: Angiel

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

Thanks !! [:)]
This would definitely be a good idea.

And I disagree very strongly. It should be a totally separate option. You want to play on Hard but have the percentages appear? That should be possible - or conversely to play on Easy and not have them appear.

Sounds like a great feature.

BTW, Dockal owes us all $50 [;)]

+1

ORIGINAL: dynaman216

ORIGINAL: Angiel

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

Thanks !! [:)]
This would definitely be a good idea.

And I disagree very strongly. It should be a totally separate option. You want to play on Hard but have the percentages appear? That should be possible - or conversely to play on Easy and not have them appear.

I agree! I would rather it be an option too.

IMO it's a gamey feature. Battle Academy 1 and 2 have the % to hit and kill. I don't see this feature in HPS
Squad Battles or Panzer Battles. It's basically like the charts at BGG that tell you the percent to do this or that.

Never thought about it, but I must be an old school tactical guy after all. % tools to figure out if I should shoot or what damage I could inflict on target?

Maybe a Siri voice to explain the % too can be added [:D]

Sorry Peter [&:]

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

Great idea! But please make it optional.

Yes, optional. I love the current state of the game, where experience and intuition are my guides.

I'd like to think that, with all of the crushing defeats that I've accumulated playing SL/ASL, Steel Panthers/SPWAW and Ln'L over the decades, my hard-earned humiliations might finally...FINALLY... come in handy somehow.[:D]

ORIGINAL: mainsworthy
I think I'm not mistakem, that tables and numbers cant be owned by anybody. you cant copyrite a table, eg you cant copyrite a formula - like einstiens theories

Since I was in the Navy for eight years (from 1988 to 1996)... well, I was a cook ("Ah! A goddamned cook!", like my daughter loves to quote ) I bought both Harpoon and Command. I actually beta-tested Command.

Now, I know that there was a big brouhaha surrounding these two games, something about databases and database data. Don't ask me for the details, because I stayed very, very far from these proceedings. However, it is my understanding that this accident led the developers to the decision of locking Command's database (which is just fine by me). This does seem to show that Matrix takes very seriously these matters.

Regarding the specific copyright laws, I admit I don't have a clue. But to take work done by other people (for example the conversion from real life factors into game stats) and use it without even recognising the thing does seem at least unethical to me.

Just my 2 cents.

If the databases have strings of words in I think you can copyrite, if a tank when calculate can fire 20 hexes, then all games taking the real life factors into account would also find 20 hexes, a table just with numbers belongs to all I think. eg if you photo all the earth from space you would not own the copyrite to all maps it belongs to all of us.

If you found you had discovered a great formula Pi * 22.6 + gravity *1.4 = speed of light \ 1000, you would have to keep it secret,because if you you tried to patent it - you would be refused.

1 cent

oh yes, having an optional % tool would be great, and leftover MP (or MF for foot ) would be great too !

I would be OK with the % (as long as it could be disabled), but that's more than what I would personally want. I'd would just like to know the basics to make some decisions, range, firepower, etc. The VASL mod, assuming it maps to the in game values, is so far providing that to some degree.