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Since Germany is already at war with Poland; it's pretty clear there is no surprise if at sea there are Poland units.
It was the same before for the Poland airplanes "surprising" German forces and benefitting of that bonus during ground strike / support (and not being intercepted).

2nd sentence of Rule 15 says:

However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are currently at war with.

It is a fine point being made here, and I am not enough of a rules guy on WIF to know. But it does make sense to me that if a power is in a sea zone with hostile units, they would not be likely to be surprised by another hostile power as they are already on high alert levels. SO in this case it makes sense that polish units in the area would have the germans on high alert.

Okay I have a response from Harry.

yes I believe the presence of the Poles negate the CW benefit of surprise. to get surprise you can't include anyone currently at war. Another example is Italy and France go to war and a German sub ends in an italian port. If the CW declare war on italy they can't surprise the italian ships in that port because of teh german sub.

It would appear that 11.5.6 and 15.1 are trumped by the last sentence of 15 - and that what the main point at issue here.

I think that this settles it and that MWIF is coded correctly. Based on this I do not believe that the initial combat was a bug either. It would be incredibly gamey if the CW could initiate with the Poles but then, because they were outside the actual combat, the Germans are surprised.

Just to let people know, while there was still doubt on the outcome here, our Axis opponents were both willing to replay the phase [&o] Thanks guys - great sportsmanship. Sadly however, there is no need to replay and the CW must take their medicine.....

But hey, always look on the bright side of life as they say. At least Steve's programming has come through this testing situation with flying colours [&o]

Did you ask about the first round where the Poles were not in one of the boxes included in the combat? That is the case I've been arguing is a bug. Not when the Poles are.

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did you ask about the first round where the Poles were not in one of the boxes included in the combat? That is the case I've been arguing is a bug. Not when the Poles are.

warspite1

It was in the scenario I gave him. I laid out the rules section and the exact scenario from the start of the naval phase to where we ended. Although he has not picked up directly on it, I am taking his silence to mean that there is nothing wrong with what happened. In support of which is my comment above that if the last sentence of 15 is the key, then to have a situation where the Poles initiated combat, and yet do not trigger loss of surprise, then that seems a) unfair b) gamey and c) unrealistic.
In real life initiating combat is searching out the enemy or at least engaging when attacked - all of which alerts the Germans to an enemy presence and thus no surprise.

My 2 cents anyway

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did you ask about the first round where the Poles were not in one of the boxes included in the combat? That is the case I've been arguing is a bug. Not when the Poles are.

warspite1

It was in the scenario I gave him. I laid out the rules section and the exact scenario from the start of the naval phase to where we ended. Although he has not picked up directly on it, I am taking his silence to mean that there is nothing wrong with what happened. In support of which is my comment above that if the last sentence of 15 is the key, then to have a situation where the Poles initiated combat, and yet do not trigger loss of surprise, then that seems a) unfair b) gamey and c) unrealistic.
In real life initiating combat is searching out the enemy or at least engaging when attacked - all of which alerts the Germans to an enemy presence and thus no surprise.

My 2 cents anyway

I had a long reply here where I had an example that is truly gamey if the rule is as you suggest. But I have no interest, at the moment, for rule discussions. Lets move on and continue with the game and impulse.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

Okay what are the Germans doing with their surprise points?

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

Okay what are the Germans doing with their surprise points?

If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort.

Mayhemizer's earlier response.

"If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort."

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?

It looks like very probably.

It would appear for naval combat, to take advantage of surprise, you need to make sure you don't have any ships already at war with the power you are about to DoW in the sea-zone.

ORIGINAL: AllenK

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I've just run a couple of tests. CW and Germany with ships in 4-box. First 2 tests, Polish CA in 0-box. Using the Allies 3, Axis 10 search result each time.

First test - Polish CA initates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Second test - CW CA initiates combat. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 7
Third test - No Polish ships in North Sea. Only 4-box included. Surprise points 13

As far as MWiF goes, the mere presence in a sea zone of Polish ships, who Germany is already at war with, negates any surprise on Germany following the DoW by CW. This seems to concur with what Harry has advised.

Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?

It looks like very probably.

It would appear for naval combat, to take advantage of surprise, you need to make sure you don't have any ships already at war with the power you are about to DoW in the sea-zone.

I think I had that situation with France at war with Italy and CW not. And I think the game handled it as I thought it would. So not this way. Maybe that needs testing. But that is for another thread. [:)]

Onwards with the game and away with the rules. [:D]

Okay what are the Germans doing with their surprise points?

Already answered.

Mayhemizer's earlier response.

"If the current result is correct, I believe I need to use 4 points to decrease AA fire to NE and remaining points used to increase damage gives me result X, which I target to the ship that is carrying HQ Gort."

The Queens are surrounded by the Royal Navy cruisers and they put up a storm of AA fire. There is no effect on the attackers other than to put them off their aim.

So what do peeps want to do?

Axis stay.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: AllenK

ORIGINAL: Orm



Then would not that affect separate major powers as well? Japan DOW CW first? Could have major impact when US enters the war. Or Italy versus France and CW?

It looks like very probably.

It would appear for naval combat, to take advantage of surprise, you need to make sure you don't have any ships already at war with the power you are about to DoW in the sea-zone.

I think I had that situation with France at war with Italy and CW not. And I think the game handled it as I thought it would. So not this way. Maybe that needs testing. But that is for another thread. [:)]

Onwards with the game and away with the rules. [:D]

Have just tested it. Italy at war with France and not CW. French ships in 0-box. CW and Italian ships in 4-box. Italy declares war on CW and initiates naval combat. Searches Axis 3, Allies 10. 4-box only included. Surprise points 7. Same as the previous tests.

Have just tested it. Italy at war with France and not CW. French ships in 0-box. CW and Italian ships in 4-box. Italy declares war on CW and initiates naval combat. Searches Axis 3, Allies 10. 4-box only included. Surprise points 7. Same as the previous tests.

Awesome. Thank you. [:)] [&o]

Apparently we played it wrong for 20+ years including at a wifcon. About time to learn then. [:)]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So what do peeps want to do?

Allies stay.

Edit: And CW send out their 4 strength fighter to the 0 box.