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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I'm getting murdered in the Air but Experience is averaging out to mid 70's for my fighter arm.

The Luftwaffe started the game with experience in the mid 80's which represent the fact that they had spent several years at war (Spain, Poland, Norway, France and the Balkans) plus their intensive training. The Soviets can spend two months of getting slaughtered in the air and then get experience comparable with the Luftwaffe starting values.....

In my honest opinion the experience gain of Air Groups needs to get seriously nerfed come a future patch.

Going by history, it should be all the way up to 1943 before the Soviets got "parity" in the air. In this game, such parity will come in 1941 if you are willing to micromanage your airforce.

I also believe the Soviet Air Groups start with an experience level that is FAR to high. Historically, the Soviet pilots often had very few flying hours behind them when they went up against the Luftwaffe in 1941. One groups of IL-2's started the war with an average of 8-10 flying hours (they had practised take offs and landings, but not actual fighting - few had ever seen the RS-82 rockets they were supposed to use).

All the way through the war Soviet replacement pilots reached the front with 8-12 flying hours (none in bad weather) and often no hours in the type of plane they were to fly against the Luftwaffe.

I concur with you that the experience starts a bit too high for the Soviets. But the process in this game to get them a higher experience would be the same I think, just a bit longer with lower experience and morale.

It is all how you control your Airforce. The principles are the same on both sides just need to know how to control that airforce. I can say that on many occasion my opponents expect too much from the Luftwaffe and fatigue the heck out of them. That just opens them up for unnecessary casualties. Yes, I see this on the Soviet side too, even more so.

But, I have always said the way west for the Russians starts with the Airforce. Build the proper Airforce in 41 and early 42 you are off to the races. Without giving away too much you did put a damper on my building of my Airforce by a few months but normally by Spring 42 to late Sept 42 I'm in full control(or at least 2/3's of the fronts) of the skies in most of my games. With that I will have the level bombers and "normally" the TAC bombers to support any attack anywhere with great fighter Coverage and bomber support. In late 42 or early 43 I turn on Interdiction for full effect. It gets sick quick the amount of causalities from interdiction.

I just haven't seen any other Soviet player play the Airforce like I do. Or maybe I just missed it, but I thought I read all of the AAR's all the way back to Beta

Some objectives I have

1. build Soviet Airforce #2 (check)
2. build Guard Infantry no matter the causalities prior to blizzard (check) (Turn 13 I have 13 Guard Infantry and 23 more with 5 or more wins(does not include Mountain, Armor, Calvary)
3. save as many trucks as possible to support a huge airforce (check)

The enclosed picture shows a Russian airfield turn 1 with a Detection level 1 .

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3. save as many trucks as possible to support a huge airforce (check)

define huge

I am able to duplicate the behavior by turning on the factory as per this screen shot:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
3. save as many trucks as possible to support a huge airforce (check)

define huge

As much as my trucks will allow along with my Armor/Mech armies that I will make and production.

Turn nine.

I believe you did something similar to Herman? It looks like the Soviets have one place they can concentrate and if the Germans bang their head against that wall .. so the strategy might be from now on is to figure out where this wall is and hit somewhere else ..

Looks like the Soviets have the edge in this game.
Timescale for Axis in '42 is just too tight and several weeks of limited progress and few divisions surrounded by the main Panzer force is going to be hard to recover from. The air war seems fairly even, good damage to the Soviets but at heavy cost and they have an abundance of trash airframes.
On the plus side the AGC railway has not been delayed so there must be reasonable prospects of taking Moscow and catching a few divisions. However STAVKA will presumably be able to spot your change of direction and switch their best leaders, followed by those good divisions, to defend Moscow. They have the advantage of interior lines and intact rail network.
Unless you can do serious damage before the blizzard the counter attack with +1 (and hordes of paras) is going to be devastating.

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I believe you did something similar to Herman? It looks like the Soviets have one place they can concentrate and if the Germans bang their head against that wall .. so the strategy might be from now on is to figure out where this wall is and hit somewhere else ..

That is the beauty of this. Pretty much almost everyone looked elsewhere for a weaker spot. The Wall moves by train. Train > PZ movement. By train less fatigue. By turn 12+ I can have an extensive wall built in front of Leningrad and Moscow. There are certain spots on the map where I will not retreat. There are others that I will put up delaying actions. Then yet others I just let the Germans have. I'm not defending everywhere. Only places I need to

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Looks like the Soviets have the edge in this game.
Timescale for Axis in '42 is just too tight and several weeks of limited progress and few divisions surrounded by the main Panzer force is going to be hard to recover from. The air war seems fairly even, good damage to the Soviets but at heavy cost and they have an abundance of trash airframes.
On the plus side the AGC railway has not been delayed so there must be reasonable prospects of taking Moscow and catching a few divisions. However STAVKA will presumably be able to spot your change of direction and switch their best leaders, followed by those good divisions, to defend Moscow. They have the advantage of interior lines and intact rail network.
Unless you can do serious damage before the blizzard the counter attack with +1 (and hordes of paras) is going to be devastating.

We are playing normal blizzard, no paras, Soviet +1 attack, random weather. (my other game has para drops, Soviet +1, Severe Blizzard, no random weather per his request)

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Looks like the Soviets have the edge in this game.
Timescale for Axis in '42 is just too tight and several weeks of limited progress and few divisions surrounded by the main Panzer force is going to be hard to recover from. The air war seems fairly even, good damage to the Soviets but at heavy cost and they have an abundance of trash airframes.
On the plus side the AGC railway has not been delayed so there must be reasonable prospects of taking Moscow and catching a few divisions. However STAVKA will presumably be able to spot your change of direction and switch their best leaders, followed by those good divisions, to defend Moscow. They have the advantage of interior lines and intact rail network.
Unless you can do serious damage before the blizzard the counter attack with +1 (and hordes of paras) is going to be devastating.

We are playing normal blizzard, no paras, Soviet +1 attack, random weather. (my other game has para drops, Soviet +1, Severe Blizzard, no random weather per his request)

I really only took on new games a few months ago to show how silly the Soviet +1 can be in blizzard. That is the whole reason I'm playing the Russian side since normally I play Germans.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I believe you did something similar to Herman? It looks like the Soviets have one place they can concentrate and if the Germans bang their head against that wall .. so the strategy might be from now on is to figure out where this wall is and hit somewhere else ..

That is the beauty of this. Pretty much almost everyone looked elsewhere for a weaker spot. The Wall moves by train. Train > PZ movement. By train less fatigue. By turn 12+ I can have an extensive wall built in front of Leningrad and Moscow. There are certain spots on the map where I will not retreat. There are others that I will put up delaying actions. Then yet others I just let the Germans have. I'm not defending everywhere. Only places I need to

If this is true and it catches on ... WITE 1.0 is done as a game .. maybe 2.0 too if there is a one way strategy with no recourse .. people will get bored .. a la GG WBTS ..

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I believe you did something similar to Herman? It looks like the Soviets have one place they can concentrate and if the Germans bang their head against that wall .. so the strategy might be from now on is to figure out where this wall is and hit somewhere else ..

That is the beauty of this. Pretty much almost everyone looked elsewhere for a weaker spot. The Wall moves by train. Train > PZ movement. By train less fatigue. By turn 12+ I can have an extensive wall built in front of Leningrad and Moscow. There are certain spots on the map where I will not retreat. There are others that I will put up delaying actions. Then yet others I just let the Germans have. I'm not defending everywhere. Only places I need to

If this is true and it catches on ... WITE 1.0 is done as a game .. maybe 2.0 too if there is a one way strategy with no recourse .. people will get bored .. a la GG WBTS ..

I really don't think that will be the case Crackaces. Any defense can be beaten just like this one can be. I know what to do to defeat this defense & I'm sure the community will figure it out too if they haven't done so already. Hence why I put it out there.

This game is far from over, however whatever the result imo the game is advantage Axis on the current patch and these settings.
HardLuck has done well to steer the game into a slugfest in difficult terrain that he has then won; taking good advantage of the '+1' and to some extend negating the present 'overpowerful' HQBuildup rules.
What I take from the whole write up, which is good stuff by both of you, is the importance of getting to grips with the full technical details of such things as fatigue and entrenchment and making best use of them. The other aspect that comes out is judgement of what the expected outcome will be over a few weeks in each area of the front and what forces need to be allocated to get the result you want. More difficult for example if you playing with '+1' for the first time and of course if your opponent tries something different.
It all make for one of the best wargames ever written, if not the best. Good job guys.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain




That is the beauty of this. Pretty much almost everyone looked elsewhere for a weaker spot. The Wall moves by train. Train > PZ movement. By train less fatigue. By turn 12+ I can have an extensive wall built in front of Leningrad and Moscow. There are certain spots on the map where I will not retreat. There are others that I will put up delaying actions. Then yet others I just let the Germans have. I'm not defending everywhere. Only places I need to

If this is true and it catches on ... WITE 1.0 is done as a game .. maybe 2.0 too if there is a one way strategy with no recourse .. people will get bored .. a la GG WBTS ..

I really don't think that will be the case Crackaces. Any defense can be beaten just like this one can be. I know what to do to defeat this defense & I'm sure the community will figure it out too if they haven't done so already. Hence why I put it out there.

Then it' s not true that the wall is impervious or so mobile that it can't be beaten [:'(] Maybe any defense can be beaten in WITE -- I honestly do not know what I do not know yet, but I know that I do know that a great game GG WBTS -- the confederates can stage a defense that will end up winning more often than not if the South sticks to a general game plan and does not blow it. The game is dead. The forum is dead.
I write my statement not so much to tweak you (whom I respect), but to the community that demands changes without thinking about long term consequences from a gaming standpoint. The law of unintended consequences...
I do think at least one player (I know) has a pretty good opening move that would put the Pskov defense at a strain at least. Not sure about the effects of +1 attack given this opening ...

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: Crackaces




If this is true and it catches on ... WITE 1.0 is done as a game .. maybe 2.0 too if there is a one way strategy with no recourse .. people will get bored .. a la GG WBTS ..

I really don't think that will be the case Crackaces. Any defense can be beaten just like this one can be. I know what to do to defeat this defense & I'm sure the community will figure it out too if they haven't done so already. Hence why I put it out there.

Then it' s not true that the wall is impervious or so mobile that it can't be beaten [:'(] Maybe any defense can be beaten in WITE -- I honestly do not know what I do not know yet, but I know that I do know that a great game GG WBTS -- the confederates can stage a defense that will end up winning more often than not if the South sticks to a general game plan and does not blow it. The game is dead. The forum is dead.
I write my statement not so much to tweak you (whom I respect), but to the community that demands changes without thinking about long term consequences from a gaming standpoint. The law of unintended consequences...
I do think at least one player (I know) has a pretty good opening move that would put the Pskov defense at a strain at least. Not sure about the effects of +1 attack given this opening ...

Any defense can be broken Either directly or indirectly. There is just way too many factors involved in this game to have an "I WIN" WITE strategy. Now that I have this out there then this should be easier to counter. I know 100% I can do so as a German player. I have already given one example in my German AAR on how to do so Just know that the Soviets have a "Serious lack of units" the early game. Prey on this as a German turns 1-9 and you will be golden. IMHO the Germans still pretty much holds all the cards currently with this patch, drop your "ACE" hand at your own pearl.

ORIGINAL: tyronec

This game is far from over, however whatever the result imo the game is advantage Axis on the current patch and these settings.
HardLuck has done well to steer the game into a slugfest in difficult terrain that he has then won; taking good advantage of the '+1' and to some extend negating the present 'overpowerful' HQBuildup rules.
What I take from the whole write up, which is good stuff by both of you, is the importance of getting to grips with the full technical details of such things as fatigue and entrenchment and making best use of them. The other aspect that comes out is judgement of what the expected outcome will be over a few weeks in each area of the front and what forces need to be allocated to get the result you want. More difficult for example if you playing with '+1' for the first time and of course if your opponent tries something different.
It all make for one of the best wargames ever written, if not the best. Good job guys.

Wait until I do HQ Buildups with my Guard Inf and Guard MTN Division in the Blizzard LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

ORIGINAL: tyronec
This game is far from over, however whatever the result imo the game is advantage Axis on the current patch and these settings.
HardLuck has done well to steer the game into a slugfest in difficult terrain that he has then won; taking good advantage of the '+1' and to some extend negating the present 'overpowerful' HQBuildup rules.
What I take from the whole write up, which is good stuff by both of you, is the importance of getting to grips with the full technical details of such things as fatigue and entrenchment and making best use of them. The other aspect that comes out is judgement of what the expected outcome will be over a few weeks in each area of the front and what forces need to be allocated to get the result you want. More difficult for example if you playing with '+1' for the first time and of course if your opponent tries something different.
It all make for one of the best wargames ever written, if not the best. Good job guys.

As I see it, the problem for the Axis player is that it is simply not possible to create a credible threat on Moscow before turn 11 or 12. Up until that point, he FBD units are simply not far enough forward to supply an attack on Moscow. HardLuck has skillfully used this situation to simply empty the Center of units and throwing them all towards Leningrad. This is also the reason why I kept my Panzers in the north, hammering away at the Soviet positions.

The +1 modifier is probably not decisive, but certainly a factor in the Soviet defense. Without it, a German infantry division in light forest would be almost impossible to dislodge. With it, the Soviets can easily attack enough times to create plenty of Guards units, limit the German buildup areas and retain MP on many units for building fortifications. Look at the turn seven Soviet counterattacks - three out of five would have failed if it were not for the +1.

As for the game balance being pro qaxis, I disagree, but I quite frankly do not have any experience about the late war to base my thoughts on.

In my humble opinion about the most important "skill" in WitE is to continuosly evaluate the situation and change your plans accordingly. To create a "Master Plan" and blindly follow it, is to ignore the fact that there are two players in the game.

What are the benefit of doing HQBuildups with infantry ?

ORIGINAL: tyronec

What are the benefit of doing HQBuildups with infantry ?

Ah, good question ;-P