Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Hey guys here is the response I got from Mr. Frag. It doesnt sound good...[:(]


"I tried to get this fixed with CV aircraft in 1.6. Mike broke something with
turning off pilots as the code was designed originally to pull a pilot at
the time the mission goes should a plane not have one. Having it not able to
pull the pilot is causing a mission scrub condition. I am not sure if
anything can actually be done about this as it is working as designed. This
is one of those classic problems ... When you change a design after the
fact, it has unexpected consequences."

Ray

Well then I go back to my fall back position of rolling back ( removing ) the "get pilot" boo-tawn. Mike said he really just added it for testing - somebody thought is was cool - so it got left in - so now that we've "tested it further" it might be time to take it back out - since it may cause more problems than it solves - but now that I understand it pretty well - I think I can live with it either way - it is just one more thing for newer inexperienced people to trip over and we have to help them with it.

I'd actually argue that maybe the design wasn't changed - but a test feature was left in the production code.

Interestingly in my save - I think the zero group is "pulling a pilot at the time the mission goes" ... even though it was under-strength ... and even though accept repls was not on .. and even though I didn't press "get pilot" .. it was gaining pilots ... and flying ... and they were good pilots ( pool pilots ) ... but the Nell group did not do this .. it just sat.

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

I like the "get pilot" button. Like Tanaka, I too would like a "get airplane" button as well. I don't know how difficult it would be to add but it would help in managing your airgroups by being able to build groups to less than their full strength. I don't really understand why anyone would object.

You realize that some purist somewhere is going to moan about this, because that means any group can get a plane anytime, anywhere, if I'm not mistaken. I know the game doesn't let all groups that are toggled to receive planes, receive them, but I have the feeling that goes out the window with a change like that.

This sounds like a really bad idea, or one that would prove immensely complicated and undoable, but I do have a wimpish suggestion nonetheless. Would it be possible to make group's replacements the way they used to be, but instead allow more 'minor splitting'? IOW, Let's say I have a group of 27, 90 rated Zeroes, and in the old way they end up getting 3 bad pilots out of a six plane replacement (6 pilots total of course). What if I could split the group into a size determined only by me? In this case I might want to make a group of the 3 bad pilots and sit them out somewhere, then later merge them back in. It would sort of be like how we handle TF's, where when splitting a TF it's not always a pre-determined lot, but is determined by me.

I'm ready to be shot now

I think that the programmers should "attack" the problem in another way.
As I see it the order for an airattack is this:
If planes > pilots Get new pilots.
If pilots > planes Get new planes.
If unable to get pilot Do scrub mission.
Launch mission with number of planes.

It should be like this:
If planes > pilots Get new pilots.
If pilots > planes Get new planes.
Launch mission with lowest number of pilots or planes.
-----
Why would a mission in the first place be canselled if there weren't enough pilots to man all the planes, just launch the damn flight with the pilots that are available.

Just my 2 ører (Eurocent)

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A group will never draw more then it's max size in aircraft. A group will never draw more pilots then aircraft. If I lose planes but not pilots I can draw planes. If I lose pilots I get replacements via my training program where every new pilot comes with his own plane so I will never have more planes then pilots.
And if by chance I did somehow end up with more ac then pilots and this was causing my group not to fly I would draw a pilot.
No Japanese player who goes from Dec 41 to late 45 (early 46) is going to fight the entire war without having a great number of untrained pilots sneak into his combat groups.
All he can do is try to preserve his groups through mid 42 to give him a chance to secure his position. In 1943 he is going to be saying "45 experiance those guys are trained" In 1944 "35 experiance? where did these vets come from" 1945 "25's enough fooling around with flight school get in the air and fight you lazy bums"

Somehow we're not connecting on this one.

So how about an example.

1. I start with 27 planes and 27 pilots ( avg exp = 80 ).

2. I'm in action for a while and I get down to 20 planes and 20 pilots.

3. My base gets bombed by B17s ... and now I have 14 planes and 20 pilots.

4. I draw planes and now I have 27 planes and 20 pilots and I won't fly no more.

5. If I draw pilots .. I've added 7 pilots with exp=30 and dropped my average exp to maybe 65 .. so I should withdraw them from combat to train them up.

6. If we had a "Get Planes" button ... then instead of having to draw 13 planes in step 4 ... we could just draw 6 planes and wind up with 20 planes and 20 pilots and we would fly and we would still be exp=80 and we would not have to withdraw ...

I think this is all we're saying ( well it is all I'm saying anyway ! ).

Once #3 occurs, add a chutai of 9 planes and 9 pilots to bring you to 29 pilots and 23 planes. Then add planes and you end up with 29 pilots and 27 planes.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, A group will never draw more then it's max size in aircraft. A group will never draw more pilots then aircraft. If I lose planes but not pilots I can draw planes. If I lose pilots I get replacements via my training program where every new pilot comes with his own plane so I will never have more planes then pilots.
And if by chance I did somehow end up with more ac then pilots and this was causing my group not to fly I would draw a pilot.
No Japanese player who goes from Dec 41 to late 45 (early 46) is going to fight the entire war without having a great number of untrained pilots sneak into his combat groups.
All he can do is try to preserve his groups through mid 42 to give him a chance to secure his position. In 1943 he is going to be saying "45 experiance those guys are trained" In 1944 "35 experiance? where did these vets come from" 1945 "25's enough fooling around with flight school get in the air and fight you lazy bums"

Somehow we're not connecting on this one.

So how about an example.

1. I start with 27 planes and 27 pilots ( avg exp = 80 ).

2. I'm in action for a while and I get down to 20 planes and 20 pilots.

3. My base gets bombed by B17s ... and now I have 14 planes and 20 pilots.

4. I draw planes and now I have 27 planes and 20 pilots and I won't fly no more.

5. If I draw pilots .. I've added 7 pilots with exp=30 and dropped my average exp to maybe 65 .. so I should withdraw them from combat to train them up.

6. If we had a "Get Planes" button ... then instead of having to draw 13 planes in step 4 ... we could just draw 6 planes and wind up with 20 planes and 20 pilots and we would fly and we would still be exp=80 and we would not have to withdraw ...

I think this is all we're saying ( well it is all I'm saying anyway ! ).

Once #3 occurs, add a chutai of 9 planes and 9 pilots to bring you to 29 pilots and 23 planes. Then add planes and you end up with 29 pilots and 27 planes.

Problem is there may be cases where I have 6 planes in my pool but no chutai of 9 planes and pilots available. So if I want to add the 6 planes so the 6 pilots have something to do ... I wind up with 27 planes ... and then no body will fly.

Yeah, I was making the assumption that there were training chutai available.

Thanks (jwilkerson and Tanaka) for clarifying what the issue is with the no-fly groups so that we know how to avoid it. I'm used to the Jap training method anyway.

One thing: Max training to 55? Hmm? Do you mean using the Training mission only or also by bombing helpless Chinese infantry too? I can easily train up into the high sixties bombing the Chinese, which I begin as soon as the group gets most pilots in the 40-45 exp range. Don't get many op losses either and it's much quicker (2 weeks). This is especially critical for the Val and Kate replacements as there aren't very many of them initially, and your Kates are going to take a beating.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yeah, I was making the assumption that there were training chutai available.

Usually everything is a matter of priorities - but if we're talking about Zeros and I'm stretched and low on resources ( condition of supreme normality in my PBEM games !!! ) .. then I'm saving them for the carriers and the non-carrier units either have 6 spare pilots ... or 7 spare planes ... or I fill up with inexperienced pilots which I can't do unless I want to make the unit in question a training unit.

ORIGINAL: Derfel

I think that the programmers should "attack" the problem in another way.
As I see it the order for an airattack is this:
If planes > pilots Get new pilots.
If pilots > planes Get new planes.
If unable to get pilot Do scrub mission.
Launch mission with number of planes.

It should be like this:
If planes > pilots Get new pilots.
If pilots > planes Get new planes.
Launch mission with lowest number of pilots or planes.
-----
Why would a mission in the first place be canselled if there weren't enough pilots to man all the planes, just launch the damn flight with the pilots that are available.

Just my 2 ører (Eurocent)

That's probably easier than my idea.