Matrix Games Forums

Now let's look at China, it is quiet here, I have not pushed Mog any at this time. I might try something when he actually attacks th USSR.

Malaya. I am falling back to Singapore, lucky for me I started my movements a couple of days before Mog landed on the West coast of Malaya.

And for my next to final picure for this time, the Solomons and NG area. I have some troops at PM and Gili Gili. I am not sure whether Mog will try to evict them or not worry about it. It will be a long time before I really have the men and material to do much in the way of attacks.

The last picture, the stratigic overview.

I don't know about lunacy.

Many allied players accept what I would conside lunacy conditions by allowing Japan to run wild with the first turn exploits. Whats the difference with these other options.

All computer games have some small exploits that must be controlled in some way for PBEM. (usually through house rules). But the existance of massive exploits like the first turn rules and the problems with Russia and China demonstrate the need for fixes to these theaters.

I applaud you're further demonstration of the problem with Russia. But I wish that at some point experienced and respected players would just ask that these things be fixed.

Russia is obviously broken as I have demonstrated before and as I am sure that you will demonstrate again. Why can't it just be fixed by simply allowing the russian player to move and redeploy.

Becasue this is a open thread, I will not discuss my plans too much or my troop deployments. I considered moving forces into the Central Pacific area and the South Pacific Area. But, until Mog actually activates the USSR, I will play a pretty normal game. The only thing I have really done so far is to assign the North Pacific HQ to SEAC. I am hoping the extra Regiments and SeaBee/EAB units will make India at least harder to take. I have 3 divisions in the Hawaii area and 400-500 aircraft, some of them quite good( all of Lexs air units are there). I have 3 bases built up to take aircraft, that will make it a bit harder to isolate PH. As you can see in the overview, I have a lot of subs in a patrol line to the north of Midway. The rest of my subs are moving elements of cut off units to safer areas. When they are done, they will go into refit/repair and then take their time in the patrol line. The ASW is too damn bloody to rish losing subs that have an 80% dud rate. [:@]

ORIGINAL: moses

I don't know about lunacy.

Many allied players accept what I would conside lunacy conditions by allowing Japan to run wild with the first turn exploits. Whats the difference with these other options.

All computer games have some small exploits that must be controlled in some way for PBEM. (usually through house rules). But the existance of massive exploits like the first turn rules and the problems with Russia and China demonstrate the need for fixes to these theaters.

I applaud you're further demonstration of the problem with Russia. But I wish that at some point experienced and respected players would just ask that these things be fixed.

Russia is obviously broken as I have demonstrated before and as I am sure that you will demonstrate again. Why can't it just be fixed by simply allowing the russian player to move and redeploy.

Hi, The reason the Soviets and China have not been "fixed" is simple. If Japan just leaves them alone and plays in the Pacific like the game is designed then no fixs are required and if we "fix" the Soviets and China then instead of Japanese players exploiting these areas we will have Allied players exploiting them. While the Soviets still could not be used without the Japanese activating them China would roll over Japan.

I don't know how to "design" China to reflect historical conditions. Had the Chinese decided to throw out the Japanese on their own they could have regained some lost ground (assuming China somehow becomes united) In WITP the Allied player controls all of China if the OOB was 100 percent accurate the Chinese would be a massive force.
By Dec 1941 Japan had given up all hope of forcing China to terms using military force. Japan had lost the last 2 major battles fought in China (the last one in Sept 41) This is why they moved into Indo China triggering the Pacific War.
Chinese supply in WITP is the means used to neuter China but this produces the Japanese abilty to exploit the situation using CEA. (Chinese units didn't lack a source per say but supply was withheld so it would be available for the post Japanese period when China settled it's internal disputes. )
The Chinese leaders realized that Japan would lose the Pacific war and withdraw from China. There was no reason for China to launch offensive operations to drive them out.

So if we give China a good OOB and better supply we create a new problem. I think the best method would be to go ahead and do this but then deactivate China same as Soviets and then only if Japan activates them would the problem exist and then it would be a case of "you asked for it.



Here is a "Did you know" Japan had lost more troops in China prior to Dec 1941 then it lost in all other areas combined after Dec 1941 up to the Soviets over running Kwantung Army in 10 days in 1945.
The USAAF lost more men over Europe then the USN and USMC combined lost in all of WWII

Logical fix for Russia would simply be to have reinforcement units come up very soon after Japan invades. Russia wasn't under attack yet from Germany, so I think the reinforcements are logical. If Japan attacks in late 41 or after that, the reinforcements should be less. Just my suggestion for a fix.

For China, my impression from reading the AARs is that it is as perfectly set up already as it can possibly get. If opponents are equal in skill, Japan can push hard and prossibly prevail in China but at a big cost to early expansion and island defences. Making China stronger would ruin the game in my opinion. A lot of allied players whine about losing China to Japan but that's mostly due to poor tactics and logistics than any design issue. Also I don't think a united China is as strong as Mog thinks it could have been due to a lack of supplies, low morale and poor leadership. From what I've learned of Chinese history, the KMT was a huge skeleton with no meat on it cause most of the troops were drafted against their will and so badly organized. The communists could doubtfully have done much either using human wave attacks vs well-trained Japanese troops.

I do believe that barbarosa started June 22, 1941. So the USSR was at war with Germany for all most 6 months before Pearl harbor attack. In fact, the sucess of the German invasion is part of why Japan thought they could win something by going to war. With the USSR knocked out, they had nothing to fear from that direction and the Kwantung army would be free to use elsewhere. Another interesting option/possibility is that the war between Germany and Russia goes more in Germanys favor and Japan can freely take some forces from the border. The reverse should also be possible, that Japan has to provide more garrision force becasue Germany does worse than 'historically'. But, those are options for a future game I fear.

As for the strength of China, she has/had so many people that unless Japan was willing to exterminate them all, there would always be someone to fight. Many of the formations were poorly led, fed, trained, armed, etc. But the sheer mass of people wa worth something. Also, I do not think the current garrison rules are exteme enough, much of the Japnaese army strength in China was used to secure supply lines and to safeguard resources.

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai


Logical fix for Russia would simply be to have reinforcement units come up very soon after Japan invades. Russia wasn't under attack yet from Germany, so I think the reinforcements are logical. If Japan attacks in late 41 or after that, the reinforcements should be less. Just my suggestion for a fix.

For China, my impression from reading the AARs is that it is as perfectly set up already as it can possibly get. If opponents are equal in skill, Japan can push hard and prossibly prevail in China but at a big cost to early expansion and island defences. Making China stronger would ruin the game in my opinion. A lot of allied players whine about losing China to Japan but that's mostly due to poor tactics and logistics than any design issue. Also I don't think a united China is as strong as Mog thinks it could have been due to a lack of supplies, low morale and poor leadership. From what I've learned of Chinese history, the KMT was a huge skeleton with no meat on it cause most of the troops were drafted against their will and so badly organized. The communists could doubtfully have done much either using human wave attacks vs well-trained Japanese troops.

Hi the game is set up for balance. However currently the Japanese can unbalance it simply by drawing on Kwantung Army.

Go back and reread your history. By Dec 1941 the Japanese were losing in China. The only thing that saved them was the fact the Chinese were not interested in driving them out. (The Chinese knew they were leaving)
Because the Japanese were losing they tried to isolate China by cutting Burma road by moving into Indo China. When the Western Powers enacted a boycott in response the "Drive South" was put into effect. (On Dec 8th several world leaders knew the outcome of the war. The Chinese knew Japan was going to lose and Churchill knew both Japan and Germany were going to lose)
Japan then had to mount offensive in burma to cut the new Chinese supply line the Ledo road. And then the Allies flew in supply over the hump. All the while the Chinese were sitting on their stockpiles. When the Western Alliance tried to get a Chinese Operation they had to provide fresh supply and equipment or the Chinese would not comply. The Chinese finally assigned units to SEAC but the deal was they would be completly equiped by Western forces. It is wrong to think the Chinese had no arms or supply they simply refused to use them against the japanese (saving them for use in post war China)

The last two major Japanese offensives prior to Dec 7 1941 resulted in massive loss to Japanese and failure to take objectives. (The reason the Japanese Dash Forward Parachute Division is so small in WITP is it had not yet been rebuilt after nearly being destroyed outside Changsha in Sept 1941.
Japan had made a large drop to cut off city. Chinese had in return surrounded the Japanese and wiped out Paras and killed over 70k Japanese before they withdrew to Wuhan. The Chinese captured all the Japanese Paratroop arms and several hundred arty guns. (a crap load of material)


Balance as designed in WITP is both sides stay where they start in China and Korea/manchuria.

Mog, do you know any good internet sources or documentaries about the fighting in Japan? You obviously are studied up on the subject so I'd like to learn more about it. The story about the paratroopers is interesting and 70k in losses is sure a lot.

As for Russia, what do you think about adding in some reinforcements to pop up soon after being invaded? I know how far it is to send stuff across Siberia but I think a lot of regiments were drafted in that region as well.

Nomad, yup you're right about barbarossa happening already. Never post without thinking first [:-] (note to self). [:o] That's what I get for posting after burning my brain out on chess.

Hi, Just Yahoo and see what you find.
A few more "Did you knows" about China. Did you know more Chinese fought for Japanese then CEA had soldiers? CEA totaled around 2,000,000 men with 2,100,000 Chinese serving for Japan. (The only country in WWII that had more collaborators then invaders)

The Chinese all served in the National Revolutionary Army (NRA)
National Revolutionary Army had approximately 4,300,000 regulars, in 370 Standard Divisions 46 New Divisions 12 Cavalry Divisions 8 New Cavalry Divisions 66 Temporary Divisions and 13 Reserve Divisions total of 515 divisions. However, many divisions were formed from 2 or more other divisions, and not were active at the same time. Therefore the number of divisions in active service at any given time is much smaller than this. The average NRA division had 8,000-9,000 troops.
Although during the war the Chinese Communist forces fought as a nominal part of the NRA, the number of those on the CCP side, due to their guerilla status, is difficult to say, though estimates place the total number of the Eighth Route Army, New Fourth Army, and irregulars in the Communist armies at 1,300,000.

So if we say a Chinese Corps is 3 divisions then they should have at least 100 units with 24,000-27,000 troops. (or 100 units twice as large as a full size Japanese division)

WITP tends to place too many Chinese in 2nd line status and not enough as infantry. So while the divisions are smaller then most other countries the number of infantry is equal to or greater. In comnbat terms it means out in the open the Chinese can mass attack the Japanese who should stay dug in where engineers are required to get them out.

Of course there would be Allied players who paid the PP cost to be able to load 24,000 man assault units (just send a few engineer units in the 1st wave.) Because Chinese only cost .25 victory points compared to USMC. (or other Allied units)

The Japanese lost around 1.1 million military casualties, killed, wounded and missing most of these prior to Dec 7 1941

ORIGINAL: TokyoBoyTensai


Logical fix for Russia would simply be to have reinforcement units come up very soon after Japan invades. Russia wasn't under attack yet from Germany, so I think the reinforcements are logical. If Japan attacks in late 41 or after that, the reinforcements should be less. Just my suggestion for a fix.

Russia can be fixed quite easily by simply removing the border rail hex's that lead into Russia. There may have been rail there but certainly not after the iniitial clash. This stops the initial onslaught and would make a Japanese blitz impossible. Problem solved.

The Maniac has been hitting some supply ships around Nouema. He also did a Bombardment this turn:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/16/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 69,116

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
D3A Val x 43
B5N Kate x 78

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Mormacdove, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Liloa, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK West Cape, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Harpoon, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 64,114

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 46
D3A Val x 43
B5N Kate x 58
E7K2 Alf x 15

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Manulani, Shell hits 8, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Nightingale, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK West Ira, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Sage Brush, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Naval bombardment of Noumea, at 68,113

Japanese Ships
DD Kuroshio
DD Isokaze
DD Shiranuhi
DD Hatsukaze
DD Oyashio
DD Kagero
CL Kuma
CA Chikuma
CA Tone
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima


Allied ground losses:
214 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
Vehicles lost 4

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Georgetown

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 27331 troops, 235 guns, 16 vehicles

Defending force 5777 troops, 37 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 27 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Georgetown base !!! Georgetown falls [:@]


Japanese ground losses:
300 casualties reported
Guns lost 11
Vehicles lost 5

Allied ground losses:
7311 casualties reported
Guns lost 13


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Malacca

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 16648 troops, 153 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 35861 troops, 343 guns, 0 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:Malacca is holding for now. [:)]
30 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported

I do not know if Mog will do an invasion of Nouema or not. I did not spot any APs that turn
that I know of. We will see, I do have a small surprise. [:D] ( or maybe I don't but want Mog to think so. [8|]
)

Well, here it is: from Mogami: ordered Japanese Army to cross Soviet border. You can't plot inactive Soviet bases as targets so you have to activate them first. Should take a day or two for Japanese units to actually move across. It was much harder then I first thought.

It is 2/23/42, and Mogami is attacking russia. I guess that indicates how bad I am doing so far. [&:] I can't do anything until he actually activates the Soviets. This will probably be fun and frustrating. I really do not think that the IJA had much of a chance against even the 1942 Soviets, but most of the good Soviet units are fighting the Winter Offensive in front of Moscow at this time. It is hard to say exactly what there was in this area in real life. I hope I can at least slow him down here, I need much more time yet.

Hi, War with Soviets should open next turn. Units ordered to advance had moved 45 miles.
Untill a Japanese LCU actually enters Soviet teritory Japan cannot plot Soviets bases as targets for air attack or naval movement. So there is no great suprise attack even possible.

Without revealing intended targets or present location suffice it to say Japan has 5 Infantry divisions presently embarked onboard transports assigned to assist combine Fleet operations against the enemy in Central/South/Southwest Pacific.

Japan has major operations ongoing in Malaya,Burma,Russia,South/Central/Soutwest Pacific Areas. Very few idle uncommited Japanese units exist on map.

Ah... those coastal convoys...

One picture says it all:

I made a mistake, I left all my aircraft at rear bases even though Mog told me he couldn't
do a preemptive air strike. I wasn't thinking this out very clearly, but we will see what
happens. Who knows, maybe I will be the first to get creamed by Mog. [:D]

Hi Japanese forces have advanced to 60 miles from Singapore. 60 miles from Vladavistok, captured the 2 Soviets bases in Pacific and several in Mongolia
Japanese forces are landing on Luganville

What's up with this game? I am interested in how is Mog doing in frozen wastes of Siberia....

O.