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ORIGINAL: dale1066

Asuming that the ussr sets up for claiming bessarabia early and germany wishes to deny this thinking that those hexes are too valuable to just give up and denies them.
Then the USSR must make an immediate DOW on Rumania.

Germany can DoW Yugo on their second impulse (impulse 3), immediately aligning Rumania, while the Russians can't demand Bessarabia until impulse 4.

From what I remember of the first few turns the forces involved would mean that if the ussr wanted this war could be allowed to go on almost indefinately, neither side having massive forces and since certain conditions having to be met for either side to stop it.

The Russians quickly build up a massive force, and can prevent a lapse of the war fairly easily. Germany needs to concentrate on conquering the low countries and then France, and so can't afford to send too much force to help against the Russians. Add to this the limited Rumanian airforce, against a free and (eventually) superior Russian air presence. I've seen two wars from denying the claim, and both ended with a conquered Rumania.

Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled; and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.

BTW these rules below still valid ?

Yes, but how do the Rumanians keep all of Rumania except for Bessarabia from Soviet control for an entire turn? If someone knows how, please tell me so I can confidently deny the claim when I'm Germany next time.

I haven't looked at the latest map/unit tallies but a capture of a rumanian mountain hex and placement therein of a couple of reasonable russian units could enable this war to rumble on

The longer it rumbles on (assuming the Germans help the Rumanians significantly), the longer it takes France to fall. Still, as Russia I would finish it as early as possible, to settle the situation and free up forces. The only reason Germany should accept such a war is if the Russians make the claim with too small a force.

Obviously germany cannot allow Rum to fall?

Perhaps they can, but not without some compensation somewhere else. Gibralter comes to mind, or perhaps an early collapse of the French. If Russia puts her mind to it, she can take Rumania well before Barbarossa, even assuming a Japanese attack in '40. As Germany, if I see the Russians stacked up to start against Rumania, I either allow the claim or DoW Yugo on impulse 3.

ORIGINAL: composer99

From the Soviet point of view, the USSR should not always set up against Rumania first. There are, for example, good reasons to set up some assets down near Persia early, since in the early part of the game the Japanese may be too busy in China to spare units to intervene. Also, the earlier the USSR takes Persia (and even Iraq), the longer it gets to use their oil for production/oil before Barb.

Finland is a harder war to fight than Rumania if the Germans help clog the avenues of progress (although the unified scale may make it easier). Persia is great for the oil, but the CW is getting some of that anyway, and this puts no pressure on the Germans in the Balkans. If the Germans align Rumania pre-emptively, or if they allow the claim, the Russians can re-deploy in plenty of time to take Persia.

Japan is another animal. Setting up against the Japanese is a great way to take pressure off of the Chinese, and can lure the Japanese into an expensive land war that can leave them vulnerable when the USA comes in. Just because the Japanese take Vladivostok, the Russians are not compelled to sue for peace (I speak from bitter personal experience). Russia benefits when she can take land actions while at war, redeploying much more rapidly to any theatre she wishes. I would advise caution however, since if the rail line near Chita can be cut before Barbarossa, Russian land forces may be stranded and unable to help defend against Germany until it's too late.

I see your point; an early claim on Bessarabia is not the only strong option, and I stand corrected.

Yes, but how do the Rumanians keep all of Rumania except for Bessarabia from Soviet control for an entire turn? If someone knows how, please tell me so I can confidently deny the claim when I'm Germany next time.

I don't think they can, tho by aligning Hungary they can rail (assuming keeping zocs on surprise, very powerful rule that option?) two WP into Buch and stop its fall.

Germany can DoW Yugo on their second impulse (impulse 3), immediately aligning Rumania, while the Russians can't demand Bessarabia until impulse 4.

going to war with Y that early has its good points if it can be finished quickly, bit of bad weather, Y's reinforcements, A foreign corps intervening can bog that all down...

neither of these plans seem that good, better off just biting the bullet let Russia have bessarabia and invest the saved time and effort to
take it back in barbarossa.

I like to screen the area then an try and pocket as many units in Odessa and chisnau up against the black sea while driving on Kiev and Dnept.

As an Aside, everyone seems to agree that the german objective is to kill as many russian units as possible in a barbarossa, whats the view on trapped pockets of a few units? The leningrad area often seems to end up as a russian POW camp with too few units/oil for russia to be too offensive, well as long as the german player is careful.

does the russian player go for the low odd s attack in order to do some damage and get the units back into circulation, leave them there to be picked off by the germans or not.

what about trapped and flipped russian hqs with no oil (and using that option) but access to a supply source can they ever be unflipped without using an OC( bit of a waste i'd have thought).

Will the AI figure these things out? I cant [:)]

In my opinion, a pocket of oos or weak units will still tie up a few units to contain them. Killing pockets frees up units from both sides, but the defending units go to the force pool, not to the map. Plus the killed units will usually just pollute the force pool anyways. Finally, puckets can be a vulnerability for supply path, you never know when partisans can combine with units in a pocket to cut supply to the frontline at some critical moment.

All in all, I think killing pockts is a worthtwile activity, but sometimes there will of course be better opportunities around, in which case pockets should be screened.

ORIGINAL: Incy
All in all, I think killing pockts is a worthtwile activity, but sometimes there will of course be better opportunities around, in which case pockets should be screened.

If Russia sets up behind the Dvina/Dnieper lines in '41, with some garrisons in forward cities as speed bumps, the Germans can flow around some of these forward units in an attempt to make quick progress, while taking time to kill those where supply or partisans could be become difficult. Effectively screened units can be mopped up later by reinforcements headed to the front.

ORIGINAL: dale1066
what about trapped and flipped russian hqs with no oil (and using that option) but access to a supply source can they ever be unflipped without using an OC( bit of a waste i'd have thought).

Once at war, the Russians should make a policy of keeping at least one oil in both Leningrad and Sevastipol. Even if the oil doesn't have to be spent due to rounding fractions, the dependent units must be able to trace to oil in order to reorg.

ORIGINAL: coregames

ORIGINAL: dale1066
what about trapped and flipped russian hqs with no oil (and using that option) but access to a supply source can they ever be unflipped without using an OC( bit of a waste i'd have thought).

Once at war, the Russians should make a policy of keeping at least one oil in both Leningrad and Sevastipol. Even if the oil doesn't have to be spent due to rounding fractions, the dependent units must be able to trace to oil in order to reorg.

Thanks, I can use that bit of information. Of course I will generalize its use (e.g., Gibraltar, Singapore, etc.).

when you first start with the RaW oil rules it seems handy to have some in overseas locations. but to re-org an oil dependent unit, it must trace to a supply of oil, _AND_ a primary supply source. so intuitively putting oil in Gibraltar, Singapore, Truk, etc., doesn't gain you anything. Leningrad and Sevastopol are primary supply sources for Russian units, so an oil there is quite handy - they can't have a FTR defense for very long without a saved oil there, frex. It is a good idea for the CW to put some in all of the CW Home Countries though.

well, often it is dangerous/costly to transport oil.

It's a good tactic to save some oil near its source and use that oil for reorg. For instance, NEI oil can be saved in Singapore (or in NEI if Netherlands is attacked by germany), and then used for reorg next turn.

Other times there is only CP capacity for part of a path. For example, the UK wants to save up as much oil as possible in the UK, because saved oil wil help offset it if the CP line is reduced (or cut!). On turns where the line is reduced or cut, it's a good idea to save the oil as close to the UK as possible, this will often be Gibraltar, south africa, etc. Later when the situation changes, the remaining bits of CP chain can be strenghtened beyond normal capacity, to allow the extra oil to reach it's destination.

Sevastapol is no good, you need to trace to a factory to reorg oil dependent units!

ORIGINAL: trees

when you first start with the RaW oil rules it seems handy to have some in overseas locations. but to re-org an oil dependent unit, it must trace to a supply of oil, _AND_ a primary supply source. so intuitively putting oil in Gibraltar, Singapore, Truk, etc., doesn't gain you anything. Leningrad and Sevastopol are primary supply sources for Russian units, so an oil there is quite handy - they can't have a FTR defense for very long without a saved oil there, frex. It is a good idea for the CW to put some in all of the CW Home Countries though.

ORIGINAL: Incy


Sevastapol is no good, you need to trace to a factory to reorg oil dependent units!

ORIGINAL: trees

when you first start with the RaW oil rules it seems handy to have some in overseas locations. but to re-org an oil dependent unit, it must trace to a supply of oil, _AND_ a primary supply source. so intuitively putting oil in Gibraltar, Singapore, Truk, etc., doesn't gain you anything. Leningrad and Sevastopol are primary supply sources for Russian units, so an oil there is quite handy - they can't have a FTR defense for very long without a saved oil there, frex. It is a good idea for the CW to put some in all of the CW Home Countries though.

Trees is right when using Saved oil resources (AfA option 31).

if not using Saved oil resources (AfA option 31) factory cities are not required just oil resource hexes.

ORIGINAL: RaW 7.0

2.4.2 Tracing supply

To be in supply, a unit must be able to trace a supply path back to a primary supply source.

A primary supply source for a unit is:

• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1).

ORIGINAL: RaW 7.0

13.5 Final reorganisation step

Turn all face-down units face-up (including units that have stayed at sea and units that are out of supply).

Option 47: (Isolated reorganization) You can only turn a unit faceup if it can trace a path to a primary supply source for that unit. You trace the path in the same way as a basic supply path, including via overseas supply paths (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length.

13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)

If you are playing with this option, you only automatically turn units face-up during the final reorganisation step if they are not oil dependent. To flip oil dependent units, you must spend oil resources. Oil dependent units are shown on the Unit costs chart (see 28).

You can only use your own oil to flip your units face-up. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers can’t help. However, communist and nationalist Chinese can use each other’s oil. You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length.

No more than 5 units can trace a path to the same oil resource.

ORIGINAL: RaW 7.0

Saved oil resources (AfA option 31)

You can save oil resources you used neither in production nor to reorganise units. A major power can only save oil if it was transported to a city or port it controls. Put an oil resource marker on that city or port to indicate how many oil resources you are saving there.

You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). You can’t save other resources. This is in addition to saved build points (see 13.6.8).

You can use saved oil resources either to reorganise units or as resources for production. Treat them exactly like printed oil resources. You transport oil like any other resource (see 13.6.1) except that they may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, it still has to get to a factory to be used for production.

Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to their previously saved oil).

If one of your land units enters a hex containing saved enemy oil resources, they become your oil resources.

Saved oil resources can be destroyed by strategic bombardment (see 11.7).

ORIGINAL: Incy
Sevastapol is no good, you need to trace to a factory to reorg oil dependent units!

Where does this come from ?
As far as I know, you only need to trace to Oil (if playing Option 48) plus to a Primary supply source (if playing Option 47), not to a factory.

ORIGINAL: trees

when you first start with the RaW oil rules it seems handy to have some in overseas locations. but to re-org an oil dependent unit, it must trace to a supply of oil, _AND_ a primary supply source. so intuitively putting oil in Gibraltar, Singapore, Truk, etc., doesn't gain you anything. Leningrad and Sevastopol are primary supply sources for Russian units, so an oil there is quite handy - they can't have a FTR defense for very long without a saved oil there, frex. It is a good idea for the CW to put some in all of the CW Home Countries though.

Particulary true.

Don't you just love and hate the Oil optional rule [:)]

ORIGINAL: dale1066

Don't you just love and hate the Oil optional rule [:)]

I love the oil rule, makes the game 10 times more complex, and all your moves will have to be thought trough, as the oil use is important.

Andi.

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Sevastapol is no good, you need to trace to a factory to reorg oil dependent units!
[/blockquote]

Where does this come from ?
As far as I know, you only need to trace to Oil (if playing Option 48) plus to a Primary supply source (if playing Option 47), not to a factory.

 
I agree.
 

ORIGINAL: RaW 7.0

Saved oil resources (AfA option 31) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RaW 7.0

Saved oil resources (AfA option 31)

You can use saved oil resources either to reorganise units or as resources for production. Treat them exactly like printed oil resources. You transport oil like any other resource (see 13.6.1) except that they may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, it still has to get to a factory to be used for production. 

 

Hmm, I don't know anymore. Probably a fried circuit in my brain...

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Incy
Sevastapol is no good, you need to trace to a factory to reorg oil dependent units!

Where does this come from ?
As far as I know, you only need to trace to Oil (if playing Option 48) plus to a Primary supply source (if playing Option 47), not to a factory.

ORIGINAL: Incy
Sevastapol is no good, you need to trace to a factory to reorg oil dependent units!

I think the confusion comes from:

Saved oil resources (AfA option 31)

You can save oil resources you used neither in production nor to reorganise units. A major power can only save oil if it was transported to a city or port it controls. Put an oil resource marker on that city or port to indicate how many oil resources you are saving there.

You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). You can’t save other resources. This is in addition to saved build points (see 13.6.8).

You can use saved oil resources either to reorganise units or as resources for production. Treat them exactly like printed oil resources. You transport oil like any other resource (see 13.6.1) except that they may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, it still has to get to a factory to be used for production.

You could assume that if you are not using this option oil would have to go to a factory.

ORIGINAL: Incy

Hmm, I don't know anymore. Probably a fried circuit in my brain...

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Incy
Sevastapol is no good, you need to trace to a factory to reorg oil dependent units!

Where does this come from ?
As far as I know, you only need to trace to Oil (if playing Option 48) plus to a Primary supply source (if playing Option 47), not to a factory.

I told you not to mix the blue pills with the red pills, man. And don't take too many mushrooms. [X(]

Cheers, Neilster

I agree it makes the game more accurate, requires more thought and helps the allies a little, but its damned annoying when as germany Italy or japanyou start running low.