Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Hi,
seeing those results I feel the question rising in me:
Why do the allies gain VP for bombing factories that are no longer producing anything (due to lack of resources/oil) ??

I know this sounds weird but when the factory ouput has grinded to a halt bombing those factories is useless as a war effort (Mogami hinted something like this).

Well, under that theorem, the Allies should get VP for non-producing industries, etc., no matter what the reason that they are not producing. The strategic loss to the Japanese is still the same whether the plant is bombed out, or lacks the oil/resource/Fruity Pebbles [;)]needed to run it.

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The bomb dropped on Hiroshima on 27 July DESTROYED 10 Manpower out of 36 leaving 4 damaged and 22 undamaged

It also destroyed 50 HI and 15 Engine. It damaged other items.


So yes you can destroy stuff. [X(]

But apparently only via A-Bomb. Firestorms/conventional bombing of Manpower will not destroy industry and only does small amounts of damage to them.

(And yes people, I understand that repairing "damaged" industry is slow and very difficult for the Japanese player late in the war. That's not the point here.)

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The bomb dropped on Hiroshima on 27 July DESTROYED 10 Manpower out of 36 leaving 4 damaged and 22 undamaged

It also destroyed 50 HI and 15 Engine. It damaged other items.


So yes you can destroy stuff. [X(]

But apparently only via A-Bomb. Firestorms/conventional bombing of Manpower will not destroy industry and only does small amounts of damage to them.

(And yes people, I understand that repairing "damaged" industry is slow and very difficult for the Japanese player late in the war. That's not the point here.)

Hmmm...

Several months ago I did conventional attack test/simulation and with good attack targeted Japan's city sufferend 10% loss from just one strike.

IMHO that is significant damage.


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
The results of those tests were posted here on the forum.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The bomb dropped on Hiroshima on 27 July DESTROYED 10 Manpower out of 36 leaving 4 damaged and 22 undamaged

It also destroyed 50 HI and 15 Engine. It damaged other items.


So yes you can destroy stuff. [X(]

But apparently only via A-Bomb. Firestorms/conventional bombing of Manpower will not destroy industry and only does small amounts of damage to them.

(And yes people, I understand that repairing "damaged" industry is slow and very difficult for the Japanese player late in the war. That's not the point here.)

Hmmm...

Several months ago I did conventional attack test/simulation and with good attack targeted Japan's city sufferend 10% loss from just one strike.

IMHO that is significant damage.


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
The results of those tests were posted here on the forum.

Since the search function isn't working well enough, I'll have to ask you directly. Did the target lose 10% of ALL industries to the fires? Or did it "just" lose 10% of the directly targeted Manpower with no fire damage to other industries? I thought I remembered someone running a test where he bombed Manpower only for something like a month straight but the fires never damaged any other industries.

Hi, MY experiance is that bombing manpower does more damage to other targets then it does to manpower. Tokyo began with 110 and before I got it down to just 100 undamaged I'd damaged HI,Resource,Shipyard repair yards aircraft and engines. what I never saw damaged was arms and vehicles but I targetd them.

If the Allied player can bomb Home Islands Japan has lost. (Of course if Japan can prevent it by putting up effective air defense thats a different animal)

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, MY experiance is that bombing manpower does more damage to other targets then it does to manpower. Tokyo began with 110 and before I got it down to just 100 undamaged I'd damaged HI,Resource,Shipyard repair yards aircraft and engines. what I never saw damaged was arms and vehicles but I targetd them.

If the Allied player can bomb Home Islands Japan has lost. (Of course if Japan can prevent it by putting up effective air defense thats a different animal)

I can't tell that from what you posted. I just re-read it and you posted what industry was in Tokyo before targeting Manpower, then switched to targeting specific industries (Vehicle and Armament) without listing their status or what damage had been done by firestorm first.

Hi, OK I'll load my save and bomb Hiroshima only targeting manpower. (I've never bombed that city) (The save is before i dropped the A-bomb)


Hiroshima pre attack status

Manpower 36
HI 720
Resource 300
Naval 45
Merchant 30
Repair 23
Arms 12
B7A 12
D4Y 20
Jake 3
Mitsubishi 60


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/29/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 234


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 87

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

8050 fires

35 HI damaged

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/30/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 245


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 354

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet


13130 fires

68 HI now damaged


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/30/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 245


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 354

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/31/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 273


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 229

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
32 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

fires 9531

56 resource damaged

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/01/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 129


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 82

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet


fires 3795

2 manpower
160 HI
67 resource
3 naval
2 merchant
1 repair
5 Mitsubishi

Hmmm, okay, nice to know firestorms will damage industry. Wish I could remember who it was that couldn't get that to happen in their game or test.

(the bomb scored 3286 VP )

Psst!.....cue Tankerace.....

Tankerace! Wake up.....

Aw, hell with it: KABLAMMO! TM

Why do the allies gain VP for bombing factories that are no longer producing anything (due to lack of resources/oil) ??

Right, they should lose points cause now it will take longer to ramp up the supply of cheap consumer electronic goods available post-war.....

Hi, Cearly it is better to target a specific item rather then hope for fires to inflict damage.
Why then should we bomb manpower (fire bomb?) The answer I think will be "Japanese Air Defense"
If Japan has fighters then daylight unescorted attacks will be to costly (historical)
The USAAF switched to night fire bombing rather then attempt daylight percision bombing.

My next test will return to Hiroshima at night.

Hiroshima pre attack status

Manpower 36
HI 720
Resource 300
Naval 45
Merchant 30
Repair 23
Arms 12
B7A 12
D4Y 20
Jake 3
Mitsubishi 60

pre strike JSL 17436


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/28/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 203


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 30

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 251


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 36

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

Guam groups did not fly (weather)

no damage to any target

285 fires


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/29/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 166


No Allied losses

Manpower hits 8

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet
32 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 20000 feet

no damage

67 fires

going to lower altitude from 20k to 10k

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/30/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 181


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 140

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
43 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

515 fires

Damage
2 Manpower
35 HI
14 resource
1 D4Y
5 Mitsubishi

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/31/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 208


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 5 damaged

Manpower hits 159

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
43 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

Guam groups grounded (weather)

fires 660

damage (total)

Manpower 4
HI 34
Resource 13
Mitsubishi 4
(looks like no new damage added but some was repaired)

no missions on 1st due to weather


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 08/02/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 175


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 4 damaged

Manpower hits 107

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
32 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
48 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hiroshima/Kure , at 60,41


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 122


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 62

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
32 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

fires 815

Damage (total)

MP 3
HI 67
Res 12
Mit 3

200 VP scored thus far by bombing

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: dtravel
Since the search function isn't working well enough, I'll have to ask you directly. Did the target lose 10% of ALL industries to the fires? Or did it "just" lose 10% of the directly targeted Manpower with no fire damage to other industries? I thought I remembered someone running a test where he bombed Manpower only for something like a month straight but the fires never damaged any other industries.

I tested with FoW ("Fog of War") set to OFF.

I directly targeted "Manpower" (i.e. I attacked ony that) but damage was done to other industries as well (this was something I didn't "catch" immediately)!

I will try to dig up the thread with that data today...


Leo "Apollo11"

Hi all,

Here is the thread:

"Comprehensive City bombing testing WitP v1.77 (B-29's vs. Manpower)..."

tm.asp?m=987147&mpage=1


Please note again that, at first, I didn't notice that by attacking "Manpower" I was damaging other industries as well!


Leo "Apollo11"

bump