Matrix Games Forums

mmmmm, Backfire breakfast (no not beans) .........and Badger for brunch........


Im not sure if destroying Keflavik is more rewarding as a Blue or a Red but it must be hell on the ground there.... [X(]

ps anyone else hooked on red vs blue (aka alter Halo)

It would suck to live around there.

First the russians bomb the crap out of the base, then they invade, then the americans come in with tomahawks and b52s, with a carrier force or 2, re-invade, and then it's back to the russians bombing it.

Do you guys typically launch the tomahawks all at once or in smaller groups.

I find that no matter what I do the tomahawks get shot down pretty easily. They end up being decoys/dumb targets for the SAMs. ARe tomahawks that easy to shoot down in real life?

ORIGINAL: dyoox01

Do you guys typically launch the tomahawks all at once or in smaller groups.

I find that no matter what I do the tomahawks get shot down pretty easily. They end up being decoys/dumb targets for the SAMs. ARe tomahawks that easy to shoot down in real life?

I'll leave real life to someone else. In the game all of the battlesets before EC2003 and WestPac don't allow for much variation in the RCS of platforms. In EC2003 and WestPac battlesets you will find the tomahawks more difficult to shoot down but they will still be detected and engaged, just at much shorter ranges. EC2003 and WestPac take full advantage of the new radar model with much more variability possible in RCS.

Here is a spreadsheet that encapsulates the HCE radar model: http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... howfile=28

Tony is right on the money with the comment about RCS. I expect that your experiences with the Tomahawks (and, for that matter, late model cruise missiles generally) will change dramatically once you play the game with the RCS model in effect. Most times, as Tony points out, the T-hawks aren't spotted until very close to their intended target, and sometimes (depending on the scenario and the local surveillance coverage) not at all.

As for manner of employment, I try to avoid using my Tomahawks piecemeal, and they are usually reserved for attacking the most heavily defended, valuable and distant enemy targets. Small flights of missiles are more vulnerable to even chance interceptions by orbiting defensive air patrols or SAMs. Larger flights will usually bust through the defences, if only by sheer numbers.

Thanks for the quick updates ToneyE and CV32.  Can't wait for the new version.  I've been playing the old version again this weekend.  I will

Since the original post was about release dates ...... Any ETA on the relase?

Well boys, you're not the only ones looking forward in anticipation. I too can't wait to pound the hell out of Keflavik as the Reds and then take it back as the Blues. There is nothing I love more than a classic cold war standoff between the giants of yesteryear. So, echoing the curiously named dyoox01's comment, any ETA on the release???

I check this forum every day in the hope there will be more news. I hope matrix realises there are some eager customers desperately waiting here!!

ORIGINAL: dyoox01

Do you guys typically launch the tomahawks all at once or in smaller groups.

I find that no matter what I do the tomahawks get shot down pretty easily. They end up being decoys/dumb targets for the SAMs. ARe tomahawks that easy to shoot down in real life?

Its a bummer watching your well timed swarm of T.hawks dissapearing in little yellow starbursts [&:], cunningly launched at the precise moment, very dissapointing [:@] eh what? Nearly as dissapointing as watching a veritable swarm of incoming ss-etc-blah blahs travelling at just short of the speed of light being demmo'd by your own cap/aaw defences [&o] [&o]! What really peeves me is one red always gets through...... unless Im playing red......

Ah well, back to taking Diego Garcia back from the red team...... gotta write a lot of letters to loved ones tonight.....

ORIGINAL: TonyE
I'll leave real life to someone else. In the game all of the battlesets before EC2003 and WestPac don't allow for much variation in the RCS of platforms. In EC2003 and WestPac battlesets you will find the tomahawks more difficult to shoot down but they will still be detected and engaged, just at much shorter ranges. EC2003 and WestPac take full advantage of the new radar model with much more variability possible in RCS.

Real life, you'd never actually see a mass Tomahawk attack like in Harpoon. Every Tomahawk (or ALCM) attack I can think of in real life has either been against relatively unprepared or undefended targets, or widely spread against multiple targets to saturate an air defense network and as part of an overall campaign involving lots of other assets.

I don't know about the rest of you...but I haven't seen many scenarios in Harpoon Classic that let you plaster undefended pharmecutical companies in Sudan, and I certainly don't fly CAP, SEAD, ECM, and strikes in support of multiple small Tomahawk strikes - nor does the game really support realistic Tomahawk strikes, considering that an airbase (for example) is a monolithic item requiring an approximated area effect in game terms, and not the varied collection of multiple targets to be hit with precision munitions as in real life.

So, the short answer: in real life, Tomahawks are hard to shoot down because of how they're used, not because of what they are. And Harpoon Classic doesn't really support that kind of use.

Sounds like you've been playing the old Harpoon Classic. [;)]

Nothing new on the release news front. We might be able to make a small positive announcement Monday night, but not directly related to the HCE release. I've got another screenshot to share too at that time

If I remember correctly, the jamming feature that was available for all the original scenarios, was turned off about the time the WESTPAC map was added or when the RCS model was added. It allowed EW aircraft such as prowlers and fencers to provide considerable protection to strikes they were included in. I was wondering if it is being turned back on for the new release ? If not, is it possible to keep both the older version (HC 2005) along with the soon to be released version on the computer at the same time ? I seem to remember that created problems in the past.

In Matrix's advertising, they imply that the scenario editor can run at higher resolution. Does this mean we will be able to use it at resolutions higher than 1028 x 1280 or does it just mean that they fixed the maps to get rid of the excessive jaggies when displaying the maps at 2x.

R/ Smitty

ORIGINAL: smitty
If I remember correctly, the jamming feature that was available for all the original scenarios, was turned off about the time the WESTPAC map was added or when the RCS model was added. It allowed EW aircraft such as prowlers and fencers to provide considerable protection to strikes they were included in. I was wondering if it is being turned back on for the new release ? If not, is it possible to keep both the older version (HC 2005) along with the soon to be released version on the computer at the same time ? I seem to remember that created problems in the past.

Jamming will indeed be present in Harpoon Commander's Edition. [:)]

In Matrix's advertising, they imply that the scenario editor can run at higher resolution. Does this mean we will be able to use it at resolutions higher than 1028 x 1280 or does it just mean that they fixed the maps to get rid of the excessive jaggies when displaying the maps at 2x.

I'll let someone else (probably Tony, hehe) answer this one.

I've just found my copy of Red Storm Rising. It should help me get in the mood. [:D]

ORIGINAL: smitty

If I remember correctly, the jamming feature that was available for all the original scenarios, was turned off about the time the WESTPAC map was added or when the RCS model was added. It allowed EW aircraft such as prowlers and fencers to provide considerable protection to strikes they were included in. I was wondering if it is being turned back on for the new release ? If not, is it possible to keep both the older version (HC 2005) along with the soon to be released version on the computer at the same time ? I seem to remember that created problems in the past.

True, the original area ECM model (area ECM for HC being defined as degrading the performance of the opposition's radar) was disabled for a period in the WestPac beta process. The original model said you could have a Prowler for instance in a group, it would halve the enemy radar range against the Prowler and its entire group if within the range of the Prowler jammer. Simple but effective.

Later in the WestPac beta after consulting with a Prowler maintainer among other fine folks I crafted a still fairly simple but much more capable area radar jamming model. Now the jamming platform will protect planes even in other groups. So you can now fly your Prowlers 10nm back from the strike package if you so desire and they will still jam. If you send out two jammers, they cover for each other, with only one jammer the single jammer is very vulnerable! The model is now more variable than just halving the enemy's radar range.

Here are a couple of examples, a Prowler with ECM range 50nm could reduce a E-3 range 360nm down to 193nm in a perfect jamming case (which would rarely if ever happen in game). A really crazy case would be a jammer with range 200nm against a 50nm ranged radar where that radar could be reduced to 6.5nm range. From there the radar model is applied and range is docked even more for targets smaller than flying billboards... So the new ECM model has a major effect on gameplay (and you'll see yellow jamming lightning bolts I drew too <g>).

Just one hint, the jammers won't jam unless their radars are turned on.

In Matrix's advertising, they imply that the scenario editor can run at higher resolution. Does this mean we will be able to use it at resolutions higher than 1028 x 1280 or does it just mean that they fixed the maps to get rid of the excessive jaggies when displaying the maps at 2x.

I think that higher resolution stuff isn't true and most likely was a leftover from re-using the list of features changed in Harpoon 3 ANW. That said I don't have a monitor anymore that can do 1600x1200 but the bug is still alive and well in the bug tracking system so my assumption is that it is not fixed. The scenario editor is still a 16-bit program (read Win 3.1) so it is a minor miracle that it keeps going at all. In fact, if you run a 64-bit version of Windows, they will not run 16-bit programs unless you do virtual PC/VMWare/etc. Those of you with 64-bit processors are fine, as long as you run a 32-bit version of windows (which most of you do...). I don't know if we'll make the current SE capable of higher resolutions anytime soon. I'll certainly take a stab at it once I'm back coding after game release, if that doesn't work out it will have to wait until the SE becomes a 32-bit program (huge undertaking) or is replaced all together. Funny you mention the jaggies at 2x zoom, they are still there and have now thoroughly puzzled three of us programmers (for instance, why aren't there jaggies in the game engine, makes me think it is an overflow issue related to be 16-bit application, but that didn't help me fix it back when I last tried).

Here is some more information (how to interpret the ECM debug log information) that I wrote up back when, and a link to some more ECM explanation at HarpGamer. Thanks to Jan for finding this one, http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=657

Hi Tony,

Thanks for responding. Like many others, I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of the newest addition.

R/ Smitty

Any news on the "small positive comment" Tony mentioned earlier? It's Monday... [:D]

Anxious are we [8|]?&nbsp; I suppose I can do two updates, this one before meeting with AGSI (2.5 hours until then), and another after.&nbsp; There was good news later on Sunday, a draft of the manual has come back!&nbsp; That should far overshadow any tidbit I had previously hoped to announce.&nbsp;

Three of Five us have already submitted our change suggestions for the manual [:)]

Don Gilman and Fletcher have agreed to my request to branch off a copy of the HCE source code and get to work on the code later in the week (that was the potential small piece of news from before that doesn't have anything to do with the game release, but it should reflect positively on the release date for the first patch).

One of my dreams for HC, yes this was really taken running in Harpoon Classic, but it isn't nearly as fully functional as it may seem. For one, the game engine doesn't know how to deal with such large distances so there are overflows and such. But it shows some things that are possible given enough time and testing.