Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: offenseman

That move into Cox's Bazaar bothers me.  I strongly suspect that he is coming north with a few divisions to land at Cox and blast into Chittagong.  If I were him and wanted to attack India, I'd send mini-Kb up there with a surface warfare groups protecting a bunch of AKs with base forces and a few hard hitting infantry divisions.  It would not surprise me if his incursion into Northern Australia is a diversion to keep your Navy down there while he sails up that coast to Cox.  Do you have decent Navy assets near Cox?

That's a very intriguing speculation. Now that LBA has been declawed as far as anti-shipping goes, if the RN isn't around to stop an invasion at Cox, nothing will. And with the Allied CVs plane-less in the Eastern Pacific, things could get really grim here.

This is such a great AAR, because it shows so clearly how different things are in AE than they were in WitP.

ORIGINAL: ADB123

ORIGINAL: offenseman

That move into Cox's Bazaar bothers me.  I strongly suspect that he is coming north with a few divisions to land at Cox and blast into Chittagong.  If I were him and wanted to attack India, I'd send mini-Kb up there with a surface warfare groups protecting a bunch of AKs with base forces and a few hard hitting infantry divisions.  It would not surprise me if his incursion into Northern Australia is a diversion to keep your Navy down there while he sails up that coast to Cox.  Do you have decent Navy assets near Cox?

That's a very intriguing speculation. Now that LBA has been declawed as far as anti-shipping goes, if the RN isn't around to stop an invasion at Cox, nothing will. And with the Allied CVs plane-less in the Eastern Pacific, things could get really grim here.

This is such a great AAR, because it shows so clearly how different things are in AE than they were in WitP.

RNAF still has the trusty stringbag aka Swordfish, and thats as deadly as it ever was, training up torpedo pilots on map is a v hit and miss affair though, hopefully patch 2 will address that. The albacore isnt too bad either and RN pilots have generally good xp, just hurting for decent escorts i would imagine. Fulmars suck like an industrial vacuum cleaner and are fodder vs the manouvrable japanese fighters but can stop and hurt lone jap bombers (but then again what cant't ? ).

If he is going for India he's timed it to perfection as the AVG has to go either v soon or has already departed and that leaves a gaping hole in CW air defences.

For anyone reading this AAR and is in feb/march 42 send some USA fighters from east coast to capetown for this upcoming fighter gap. I would imagine all allied players find it by accident 1st time round. and by then its usually too late to do much about it.

RE China Aztez ..

Large japanese drive SW from Ichang and how hes nibbling at your supply routes to changsha .. humm puts you in a tricky spot there. Cant abandon changsha but you'll need to keep a route open too. Decisions decisions and no great advice coming either. hang in there mate !

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK
...

If he is going for India he's timed it to perfection as the AVG has to go either v soon or has already departed and that leaves a gaping hole in CW air defences.

For anyone reading this AAR and is in feb/march 42 send some USA fighters from east coast to capetown for this upcoming fighter gap. I would imagine all allied players find it by accident 1st time round. and by then its usually too late to do much about it.

...

In feb/mar 42 a couple of hurricane squadrons of the 221 group arrive in Aden (HQ originally in Rangoon) plus some fighter squadrons from other groups. So I'm not sure I understand the gap you're talking about. [&:]

I agree with Mistmatz, I'm in April 1942, and I love my RAF airforce. Of course I have had rather good fortune in my vs AI game, but the pure number of fighter groups available totals 8-10 groups of 16 hurricanes a piece. That is a lot of fighters, plus maybe any remaining buffalo groups. The pilots are good too. The way it is in my game, if there is a fighter gap anywhere, it is not in India/Burma.

Check the withdrawl dates on your squadrons chaps. some of the Hurris have to depart theater in june/july too. There really is a drop off in fighter command in india in mid 42. Also do not forget you will have to park a few Sqdns in Colombo in case KB comes calling. That really leaves the India/burma border short on fighters and especially fighters with any range. Losing the 72 planes of the AVG is a noticeable loss in the Allied TOE.

The reason i say to send US fighters in Feb/Mar is the delay in getting them to Capetown (about a month iirc) then carting them over in a defended AK convoy. The USA fighters will massively help you in mid 42 and while they are also useful in the Pacific I found that at least vs the AI(ironman scenario) i had 'just' enough in the SW Pacific and could afford to send over 3-5 Squadrons/groups to India. However that said i did move a lot of the B17's to India to hit Burma and threaten Rangoon, so in my game i am bomber heavy in numbers.

Apologies on highjacking the thread Aztez , just couldnt seen you dropping to page 2 [;)]. somehow that would be spiritually wrong.

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Check the withdrawl dates on your squadrons chaps. some of the Hurris have to depart theater in june/july too. There really is a drop off in fighter command in india in mid 42. Also do not forget you will have to park a few Sqdns in Colombo in case KB comes calling. That really leaves the India/burma border short on fighters and especially fighters with any range. Losing the 72 planes of the AVG is a noticeable loss in the Allied TOE.

The reason i say to send US fighters in Feb/Mar is the delay in getting them to Capetown (about a month iirc) then carting them over in a defended AK convoy. The USA fighters will massively help you in mid 42 and while they are also useful in the Pacific I found that at least vs the AI(ironman scenario) i had 'just' enough in the SW Pacific and could afford to send over 3-5 Squadrons/groups to India. However that said i did move a lot of the B17's to India to hit Burma and threaten Rangoon, so in my game i am bomber heavy in numbers.

Apologies on highjacking the thread Aztez , just couldnt seen you dropping to page 2 [;)]. somehow that would be spiritually wrong.

You are right here. I send three fighter units and four bomber units to India on the first day of the war. If the Japanese establish a foothold in PM and Noumea, there is no place for the short legged US fighters to engage until mid 1943, thus giving Japan too much of a breather. The extra squadrons in India allow for the Allies engage Japane early and steadily. It is impossble for Japan to ignore.

Well, I will say that I found sending bomber units to India was useful, but it was really just a result of needing a place to evacuate Philippines B-17's to.

I think in some ways my vs AI game has gone off the rails, so it probably does not reflect the 'normal' way a game will proceed. [8|]

What a nail biter this game is =) You are clearly fighting a very capable opponent! I hope you can weather the storm and get into '43 fairly intact.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Check the withdrawl dates on your squadrons chaps. some of the Hurris have to depart theater in june/july too. There really is a drop off in fighter command in india in mid 42. Also do not forget you will have to park a few Sqdns in Colombo in case KB comes calling. That really leaves the India/burma border short on fighters and especially fighters with any range. Losing the 72 planes of the AVG is a noticeable loss in the Allied TOE.

The reason i say to send US fighters in Feb/Mar is the delay in getting them to Capetown (about a month iirc) then carting them over in a defended AK convoy. The USA fighters will massively help you in mid 42 and while they are also useful in the Pacific I found that at least vs the AI(ironman scenario) i had 'just' enough in the SW Pacific and could afford to send over 3-5 Squadrons/groups to India. However that said i did move a lot of the B17's to India to hit Burma and threaten Rangoon, so in my game i am bomber heavy in numbers.

Apologies on highjacking the thread Aztez , just couldnt seen you dropping to page 2 [;)]. somehow that would be spiritually wrong.

You are right here. I send three fighter units and four bomber units to India on the first day of the war. If the Japanese establish a foothold in PM and Noumea, there is no place for the short legged US fighters to engage until mid 1943, thus giving Japan too much of a breather. The extra squadrons in India allow for the Allies engage Japane early and steadily. It is impossble for Japan to ignore.

And it is good for Allies to spread the losses among multiple airframes. British replacement rates are not that stellar, so few US units taking some brunt of combat losses will help a bit.

Aztez .. were are you ???????????????????????? /echo /echo ..

And a good point Sadurkar, just had the thought that turning rreplacements off for fighter groups 1-2 weeks before withdrawl date might help save a few needed airframes too as a group with 1 plane left can still withdraw happily.

Hi guys! I'am back well I haven't even left anywhere. Just that RL is keeping things busy. I did buy new Acer Aspire 8530G laptop and this thing is far from ready either.

Basically things are somewhat hectic at the moment.

Yesterday was my oldest daughters birthday too.

I will post on summary of the latest developments though. We really haven't advanced much in past days.

It seems that I have recievef few PM messages but I will respond to them tomorrow. It is getting late back here.

offenseman: That could be possible scenario for sure. I'am not yet convinced that he is coming for India though due to stretched supply lines he would need keep running.

Personally I'am much more worried about the situation at Australia which seems to be targeted somewhat heavily. The northern oz operation is definately not an complete diversion since has around 1500-2000av worth of troops already there.

ABD123: Thanks for the compliment. The game is diffrent in so many ways as you stated. I must admit that I have taken an such an beating so far and that is somewhat frustrating to say at least.

The lba bombers are quite toothless againts shipping. The divebombers on the other hand seems much more capable than in the witp classic.

Rob: echo/echo... responding. AVG is actually already gone and withdrawn. The fighters are regular army ones at the moment.

The India has mostly P40E's and Hurricanes stationed there at the moment. The losses has been high for both sides that I have decieded to abandon daylight bombings againts Magwe. Instead next turn there will be night bombing runs launched for the 1st time.

Really no need to apoligize for anything. Discussions are welcomed on this thread.

China is an huge concern though. You stated that I should not abandon Changhsa, Not so sure about but we shall see since there are now 42 units on the hex in question.

The whole china front is an complete mess so abandoning Changhsa area might even be wise things to do. Than again I'am really not an expert here....

Mismatz: You are correct. There are quite an few Hurricane squadrons coming through... but as I also reveleaded we cannot compete with the japanese airforce yet since the battle of attrition is not in our favour. Weird but true... the pools are not in good shape after an months fighting in burma.

Xxzard: The RAF fighters are good but againts competent/very good PBEM player even them are not enough to compete for airsupremacy. Japanese just are producing too many aircraft to keep up.

crsutton: That is an good move but if I had to start all over them I would divert much of them into Oz. It seems that is an huge (in terms of scale) achilles heel of everything. Not enough aircraft, fuel, etc.

Graymane: Thank you and most definately I'am. That is why things are so frustrating at times!

It is still longway before 1943 hits and a lot of things can happen. I need more of everything before I can go into major offensives. Againts AI I would already be rolling on but againts Dave.. well really need to think things through.

When we go in we will go in with the intention of staying "there".

Sardaukar: Good advice and I have 5 US army squadrons available in india/burma, RAF is still the major producer though and taking most of the casualties.

China (july 17th - 18th 1942)


As predicted things are becoming very intense and the battles will commence immediately.

There are now some 42 units at Changhsa. I really don't have an estimate on the total strenght of my opponent but I would assume it to be around 5000av. I have some 3700av behind level 6 forts.

There are also clear singns of oncoming assault againts Hengyang. There are 2 units trying to bypass the base and some +20 units propably coming via frontal assault here.

The only battle to report was fought near Lanchow and the river crossings cost him some troops.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 82,34

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 3096 troops, 20 guns, 171 vehicles, Assault Value = 303

Defending force 11519 troops, 69 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 374

Japanese adjusted assault: 24

Allied adjusted defense: 539

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 22

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
913 casualties reported
Squads: 44 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 64 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 85 (57 destroyed, 28 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
394 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 33 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

I have ordered immediate counterstrike here and maybe we can throw these troops back across the river.

The city of Ankang was seized. These troops are low quality japanese infantry brigades though so definately only an sideshow here.

As said I'am still very much undecieded whether to abandon Changhsa area in good order.

Pacific (july 17th and 18th 1942)

Than again I'am really not an expert here....

No one is at this stage .. and 42 units at changsha .. eek ! looks like i interpreted that attack from ichang to be the main thrust , wrong . oops.

and good to have you back my friend [&o]

hm i thing Changsa is a deathtrap if you are not careful.
Also without defensive terrain it will probably be a slaughter anyway.

id pull back like scetched in the screenshot (mostly exactly the opposite moving direction you are currently intending),
make a defense on the move back as long as the terrain favours you and try to hold the line behind the river.
(ofc my arrowas are much uglier than yours... [:D] but i hope it shows what i mean)

LoBaron .. I 1/2 agree with both of you to be honest. Changsha is urban terrain so is defensible. The 2 cities to the west of it are open as you point out. However so long as Aztez can hold the city (forget name) 2 hexes NW of changsha he still has a viable escape route. One option i think i'd try would be to pile all the chinese reinforcements into that city and try and force japan out (if possible) freeing up the supply route to changsha. If japan looks like it might move into the hex directly NW of changsha then its time to bug out fast imo.

OR If your feeling brave and or bloodthirsty then leave the forces in changsha and given the way the combat model works they will eventually surrender so you get them back with free troops in a month (albeit at 30%). Given that you have far too many battered corp already unless you can get them out intact let them die in place. May even be worth it to pile in all the broken and battered units too and hope they surrender .. rather a heartless option i know but somehow evilly pragmatic.

ORIGINAL: aztez


Overall somewhat disappointed with the AE now. It all seemed so polished and ready but after playing this extensively it is quite obvious that I whole heartedly don't see eye to an with the game model.

The biggest disappointed is china. Enough said already and I think this theatre hasn't been looked properly. If it had than I don't understand how it made into final product in this state.

Other thing is these weird and bizarre ground combat model. The latest movement saga in the northern oz is absurd. Dave stated that it is working as planned, well maybe but if so than it is even far worse.

Taking these into consideration you wonder "why bother" dedicating so much time into this when some basic concepts are not realistic at all. No, I'am not qutting or anything just very disappointed.

aztez, for what it is worth, the game has worked very smoothly with my opponent Miller41. He keeps his stacks in China down to about 3 divisions and a moderate amount of artillery and we both tend to manuever regiments and divisions on other fronts. Works great and is a lot of fun. Establishing reasonable troop concentration limits seems to keep the scaling effect from breaking the ground combat model.

Rob: Good to be back! We did ok againts the 1st ground assault at Changhsa. You know I'am bloodthirsty!

The only problem that those troops need to completely trapped there in order to pull that off. If he leaves even one hex open for retreat than disaster. I will only have battered troops and no reinforcements since the game engine is very harsh on retreat model.

Dave is definately moving behind Hengyang. So, it might be wise to stick for round or two and than start pulling out. At least it is the safest option to be done.

Dave actually proposed himself that if/once china falls he will not use these armies outside of china. Only place he will and can send in reasonable amount of troops is manchuko.

LoBaron: That is what I'am thinking too and don't worry about the arrows. This option is the safest thing to do.

Only downside is those lost resource cities but than again I doubt I can hold them anyways,

The only addition I would make is that in that case Liuchow and Kweilin needs to be "abandoned" too. These cities are way too isolated to begin with.

Wirraway_Ace: Nice to hear you are enjoying your PBEM game. Miller is nodoubt and honourable opponent.

Without HR's this area would already be over so hat off to Dave too. Unfortunately I did lose so much before this became obvious so the salvage operations became very hard.

As for the HR you guys are using. Well, I like it since it in nodoubt keeps the whole country active in terms warfare and battles

China (july 19th - 24th 1942)


The battle at Changhsa begun with artillery bombardments for two days time. I did lose maybe +100av worth of troops.

Than the 1st massive ground assault became...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Changsha (82,52)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 162973 troops, 1153 guns, 713 vehicles, Assault Value = 5177

Defending force 105091 troops, 443 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3143

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese adjusted assault: 1766

Allied adjusted defense: 8311

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
20256 casualties reported
Squads: 76 destroyed, 933 disabled
Non Combat: 74 destroyed, 969 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 133 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 147 (2 destroyed, 145 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
6383 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 294 disabled
Non Combat: 38 destroyed, 418 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Assaulting units:...
116th Division...
3rd NCPC Infantry Brigade...
15th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
5th Armored Car Co ...
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade...
51st Recon Regiment...
13th/A Division...
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade...
4th Cavalry Brigade...
14th RGC Temp. Division...
26th Recon Regiment...
8th Recon Regiment...
138th Infantry Regiment...
1st NCPC Infantry Brigade...
41st Division...
17th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
12th RGC Ind. Brigade...
8th Armored Car Co ...
37th Division...
24th NCPC Route Brigade...
8th NCPC Infantry Brigade...
13th Tank Regiment...
17th RGC Temp. Division...
6th RGC Division...
12th Tank Regiment...
35th Division...
28th Engineer Regiment...
71st Engineer Regiment...
58th Infantry Brigade...
26th Engineer Regiment...
26th RGC Temp. Division...
6th Division...
15th RGC Temp. Division...
8th RGC Route Brigade...
40th Division...
13th/B Division...
51st Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion...
12th Army...
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment...
1st Mortar Battalion...
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
8th Ind. Engineer Regiment...
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion...
...
Defending units:...
20th Chinese Corps...
75th Chinese Corps...
99th Chinese Corps...
86th Chinese Corps...
68th Chinese Corps...
74th Chinese Corps...
37th Chinese Corps...
31st Chinese Corps...
58th Chinese Corps...
26th Chinese/B Corps...
19th Group Army...
30th Group Army...
27th Group Army...
29th Group Army...
57th AT Gun Regiment...
12th Group Army...
32nd Group Army...
9th War Area ...
22nd Artillery Regiment...


... that one hell of an battle yet again. Chinese forces did ok here but we only disabled units which is not as bad for the japanese side. Chinese disablements equals to unit lost for longtime ahead.

The advance is supported by large lba bomber support too.

Dave also moved troops behind Hengyang and now between Kweilin and Liuchow.

In the north (not shown in the map) we fought two ground battles near Lanchow.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Lanchow (81,34)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 12817 troops, 79 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 397

Defending force 10138 troops, 61 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 306

Japanese adjusted assault: 259

Allied adjusted defense: 393

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), preparation(-)
experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
660 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 32 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled


Allied ground losses:
710 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Assaulting units:...
7th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
7th Mongol Cavalry Division...
...
Defending units:...
3rd Chinese Corps...
17th Chinese Corps...
81st Chinese/C Corps...
6th Chinese Base Force...
8th Chinese Base Force...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 82,34

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 9036 troops, 69 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 261

Defending force 4931 troops, 24 guns, 427 vehicles, Assault Value = 247

Allied adjusted assault: 114

Japanese adjusted defense: 229

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
Vehicles lost 32 (1 destroyed, 31 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
587 casualties reported
Squads: 28 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 40 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled


Assaulting units:...
81st Chinese/A Corps...
82nd Chinese/A Corps...
82nd Chinese/B Corps...
17th Group Army...
...
Defending units:...
1st Cavalry Brigade...
10th Tank Regiment...
23rd Tank Regiment...
1st Recon Regiment...
11th Tank Regiment...


...another delibarate assault is scheduled next turn. At least we did inflict reasonable amount of casualties here.

Good idea from Rob as usual.

Just one thing that could make this more difficult. Does anyone know what the morale/exp values of the recreated Chinese units are?
I guess your units have probably a bit of experience gained after all this fighting and if you get 1/3 strengh divisions with 5 exp and low morale
they would be just cannon fodder for the next couple of months.