Matrix Games Forums

+1 to everything Joc says. He's on the money.

ORIGINAL: Mundy
Well, I do want transport capability at hand in case an invasion window opens up. I don't want all my transports scattered into the four winds with zero capability to move units when I need to. I for the most part kept the shorter ranged ships (<= 4,000) there to deal with local issues.

That's a fair point and it is worth noting that most of the ships lost were only a few VPs each. At the same time, however, I'd argue that a window wasn't really ready to open up you. Even if the KB had been detected halfway across the world, there was no invasion window yet. I know you've mentioned Port Moresby but as long as its 11 hexes from Rabaul then I don't know how you have a shot of taking the base any time soon. I think you have to get the historical 1943 mindset out of your head. Things have happened differently in your game and you just have to adjust.

Anyways, I think this game still has a chance. But you have to be smarter going forward. Using LBA and surface fleets to island hop will be the key for you. But you need to be more careful with your airframes than before. You are finally getting the P-47 and can use it to cover invasion fleets at range. But you need some sort of respite to regain a solid footing to move forward.

A standard non-enhanced scenario probably would have never seen this many carriers on his end.

I don't believe this mod provides for any additional carriers or enhanced Japanese capabilities. If anything, the mod works against the Japanese player, reducing cargo, increasing fuel. TOE is the biggest change I believe and again in the Allied favor with increased AA. Japanese AA/ASW doesn't come close to Allied capabilities. Japanese Engineers and Air Support are reduced and don't compare to Allied capabilities.

CF is an expert player. He most likely shut off all non-essential naval builds and focused on accelerating carriers. He did the same with Air Production. He knows what he is doing. I don't believe the mod is working against you here.

I wish my game was progressing Mundy, because much of the map resembles yours. In my PBEM, Andre has moved into India and also has New Caledonia and Fiji under his control, so I'll be facing many situations that you are currently trying to deal with. However, I have not suffered the amount of losses you have to date and my game date is only in AUG/42 so it may be a little easier for me moving forward. Hopefully, once my PBEM picks up again I'll be able to share some common experiences and show some examples of operations and their success/failure.

I haven't been inclined to post lately.
&nbsp;
Figure I'd spare everyone my stupidity.

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I haven't been inclined to post lately.

Figure I'd spare everyone my stupidity.

Don't feel too beat up! You have had some successes where others playing more conventionally (like me) would have avoided contact. War is a game of risks and some work out and some do not. It takes some years of playing to get a gut feel for what you can take as a good risk and what is not worth it. It also takes time to develop the pattern of strategic thinking and supporting ops that others have been berating you for. Lately I have seen you turn back ops just from the fact that your TFs were detected. Your gut was telling you that pushing on would get you slammed. This is called learning.
I think you are coming along just fine! [:)]

Also be aware that we each have our own preferences about what should be done and how to go about it. Some of us are so convinced it is the only way that we forget to allow the AAR writer to play his/her own game. This should not be taken personally - it is just evidence that we are into the game so much that we think yours is ours! [:D]

Above all, remember that scoldings from experienced players are like those from a parent - they do it because they want you to remember their advice and succeed. Good luck, and please keep us in the loop when you do great things and when you want advice! [:)]

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I haven't been inclined to post lately.

Figure I'd spare everyone my stupidity.

Hi Mundy,

I'm sorry you felt that way and if my posting is to blame I offer an apology. I mentioned in CF's AAR that personally I'm hoping you turn things around, but find it frustrating to follow your setbacks at times. It's like BBfanboy is saying, some of us are into your game, wanting to follow and help where we can and see you succeed, but as he says, it is your game and we may not always understand your situation fully.

So again, if I contributed to you feeling 'stupid' I most certainly apologize for doing so. I had hoped my comments would help, not the opposite.

I know you guys mean well.  It's easy to get downtrodden at times.

I've been questioning myself if it's worth continuing.  I'm deciding to stick with it.  I don't want to punish CF for doing well, and he's been a great guy to get to know.  We will have been doing this one for a year at the end of this month.  I've never gone this far into the game before, and I've been getting new toys out of the shipyards.  Independence is enroute to Pearl right now.

I'll check out your AAR, SqzMyLemon.  Vs Chx, right?  I've read a few of them, but it's hard for me to see the big picture in them.  Unless I'm doing it myself, the info doesn't tend to stick in my head.  I've mostly been reading Mandrakes fights, but they do bounce around in an ADHD sort of way.  I miss Canoerebel's fights, and I try to pattern my storytelling after his, being more narrative.

After his ravaging of Brisbane, it looked like Cannonfodder was heading back to Suva.  His battleships and carriers pounded Lord Howe on the way through, and I guessed it was out of spite.  Intel then warned of transports bound for there.  All of one day's notice as it turned out.  Lord Howe fell the day the troops landed.  That's going to make supply/reinforcement to Australia from the US rather interesting.  I'll probably have to route convoys south of New Zealand to Melbourne at this rate. 

KB then proceeded south to the area between Oz and NZ and caught a returning big supply convoy, ravaging it good.

Due to these moves, I have an invasion convoy for Baker Island already outbound from Christmas Is.  One USA infantry division, two USMC armored battalions and one artillery.  Base forces and engineers for there are a day behind them.  One BB is in the invasion force and two more are going to bombard.  Two CVEs will provide some air cover against any potential Nettie raids.  If KB is going to keep screwing around in the south, I should be able to smash and grab Baker and hopefully be out quickly.  I'm using my new assault ships, so I'm hoping they offload quickly.  I lost sight of KB last turn, but the turn before they were halfway between Sydney and NZ.  My invaders are unseen as of yet, but they're only about 2 days out of Xmas.  I will abort if KB doesn't cooperate.  I figure 2-3 days steam at full throttle if he decides to contest, probably losing all his destroyers on the way.  I've had a knack of catching them with my old battleships, but hopefully it won't come to that.  I'd like to relieve him of Baker, as it takes away a search bulge he has heading to the east.  If I can grab this island quickly, I have plenty of planes I can move in.  Some PBYs running from there would be helpful -- Maybe even some recon PB4Ys to scout out the Gilberts.

I'll keep tinkering with the "hit 'em where they ain't" strategy.  Maybe I can get one of the northern Jimas in the Kuriles.  Most look empty except for Paramushiro-jima, which is in the 6,000 range troopwise.  A squadron of fighters is there, too.  That would be a long haul for KB to rescue, and I doubt their fuel would last that long.

I've had a couple convoys unloading base units and supplies at Vava'u.  Netties have been harassing them, but have only hit three or four ships in as many days, including a converted British CLAA.  They've been unsuccessfully obsessed with trying to hit an Omaha CL.  None appear fatal so far, the worst hit are heading to Pago Pago.  I just flipped this island to air level 1 last turn, so now a squadron each of Wildcats and Jugs are CAPping, hopefully ending this.  I think about 150 air support are present now.  This island is probably the most exposed of my network there.  (Vava'u, Niue, Ta'u, Pago Pago and Savaii)  I have fighters and SBDs on all of them.  B-25s and A-20s are also present, along with PBYs.  A pity I didn't think of doing this to the Suva area a year ago, but I guess there's only one way to learn...

A couple days ago my planes in Australia hit a convoy unloading at Buna. Of course, the escorted SBDs (Hellcats) get beaten off by the CAP, but the unescorted Mitchells sail in past the CAP with nearly every one getting a hit. Things work backwards sometimes.

Believe me, my next Allied game will be different.

Mundy,

Everyone on CF's AAR is applauding your fighting spirit. CF is about an expert a player as you can get. DBB makes things challenging for the Japanese and CF handles is with ease. Production system is challenging and he's mastered it.

I've played this game (and prior version) for a long time and I still suck at it. One thousand details and many of them buried. I JUST found out that having multiple bases within supply range of an LCU and having more than double required supply helps with replacements.

If you were playing me, you would be doing quite well by now. You are getting a first hand experience for the need to build up bases that you wouldn't think need building up, multiple interlocking bases to prevent one from being easily shut down, keeping your valuable assets away from the front lines and not overestimating allied strength in 1943. Even carrier combat is a chore. Multiple levels of CAP. Zero range cap vs. longer range cap, etc...

Your next game will be very different.

Hit them were they ain't is a good strategy, no matter the side, but especially good for the Allies. In 1945 you can hit him anywhere you want most likely if you bring the kitchen sink.

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Due to these moves, I have an invasion convoy for Baker Island already outbound from Christmas Is.  One USA infantry division, two USMC armored battalions and one artillery.  Base forces and engineers for there are a day behind them.  One BB is in the invasion force and two more are going to bombard.  Two CVEs will provide some air cover against any potential Nettie raids. 

Writing on the phone so just a short note. I´ll tell you more tomorrow morning when I´m at the computer.

You can´t land on Baker with a full ID. Its a 6000 SL Atoll. You will massively overstack. All supply will be instantly burned up due to the overstack and you will lose all troops in the shock attack.

Please listen to me this time. You will lose the entire ID and all the other troops too. [:(]

He can cherry pick the transports and only invade with some of them? Or just go in with the armor and artillery?

Do you have ships carrying nothing but supply (AK)? Those are always needed for invasions to insure proper supply reaches the troops on the beach.

I'm not typically this bad. This has been a combination of some rash decisions and some outright bad luck. It's not like I'm new to this game. I don't mind facing a very good opponent, as I've learned tons from CF. My allied opponent in my other game is showing me things as well.

03 July 1943

Cannonfodder gets his introduction to the P-47.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Vava'u at 141,165

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 37
G3M3 Nell x 12
G4M1 Betty x 16

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 17
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 20 destroyed
G3M3 Nell: 5 damaged
G3M3 Nell: 1 destroyed by flak
G4M1 Betty: 10 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CL St. Louis
CL Detroit, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAP William Dunbar, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x G3M3 Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
15 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp

CAP engaged:
15th FG/45th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
348th FG/340th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 4000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes

I couldn't have hoped for results this good, except to maybe penetrate the escort better. One of my Jug pilots has 4 kills after one day. My transport TFs each have only a few hundred supplies left on them, so I'm pulling them out now. The P-40s at Vava'u will LRCAP the cripples to Pago Pago. I bumped the CAP on the Jugs and Wildcats down to 50 from 80.

KB has vanished. I've moved a VP squadron to Sydney to try and find them. I had kept naval search a bit weak in southern Australia. If I go a few more days without locating them. I'll call off my invasion. They're about half way between Christmas Is and Canton right now and not exactly moving at blazing speed. They're unspotted yet, but the CVE TF next to Canton has been seen. (10/10) I've just kinda noticed how close Suva really is to Baker and the rest of the Gilberts.

A judgement call on whether to go ahead with your invasion of Baker. KB could theoretically arrive in time to crush it if indeed your CVE's gave it away. Too bad you didn't choose a more northerly approach to Baker to avoid alerting Canton.

If you go ahead, the suggestion to cherry pick your invasion force may be a good one. Could you not choose a regiment sized segment of your division to go in with the tank and arty to stay within stacking limits? I have heard of people landing full divisions to over stack an atoll, but they also unload a large amount of supply from designated supply only TF's.

If you are two days from landing I would go ahead, anymore than that I'd ask myself if I was feeling lucky...punk.

Good luck if you decide to go.

ORIGINAL: Mundy
Due to these moves, I have an invasion convoy for Baker Island already outbound from Christmas Is.  One USA infantry division, two USMC armored battalions and one artillery.  Base forces and engineers for there are a day behind them.  One BB is in the invasion force and two more are going to bombard.  Two CVEs will provide some air cover against any potential Nettie raids.  If KB is going to keep screwing around in the south, I should be able to smash and grab Baker and hopefully be out quickly.  I'm using my new assault ships, so I'm hoping they offload quickly.  I lost sight of KB last turn, but the turn before they were halfway between Sydney and NZ.  My invaders are unseen as of yet, but they're only about 2 days out of Xmas.  I will abort if KB doesn't cooperate.  I figure 2-3 days steam at full throttle if he decides to contest, probably losing all his destroyers on the way.  I've had a knack of catching them with my old battleships, but hopefully it won't come to that.  I'd like to relieve him of Baker, as it takes away a search bulge he has heading to the east.  If I can grab this island quickly, I have plenty of planes I can move in.  Some PBYs running from there would be helpful -- Maybe even some recon PB4Ys to scout out the Gilberts.

That is WAAAYY too much firepower for Baker. Off the top of my head I'd say you'd be close to 2x the stacking limit with JUST the LCUs to say nothing of the base forces and engineers. Surely SigInt has enlightened you on what the Japanese have defending the island. Would be very surprised if it was more than a naval guard battalion and some support units. The units you allocate to a mission should fit the mission parameters. This invasion package does not.

ORIGINAL: Mundy
I'll keep tinkering with the "hit 'em where they ain't" strategy.  Maybe I can get one of the northern Jimas in the Kuriles.  Most look empty except for Paramushiro-jima, which is in the 6,000 range troopwise.  A squadron of fighters is there, too.  That would be a long haul for KB to rescue, and I doubt their fuel would last that long.

If you are still thinking about these big ambitious moves when you don't have anywhere close to naval parity then I fear you are missing some lessons you could be learning from this game. And your analysis is just way off...you keep thinking all there is to an invasion is the initial landing. What happens when the KB comes here AFTER you land, smashes all your air bases, then cuts the convoy route? Immediately your units are stranded overseas with no prospect of immediate support unless you throw your navy into a battle you probably shouldn't be fighting.

EDIT: Think about it this way: if you couldn't hold Fiji against a Japanese invasion despite starting level 9 forts and huge amounts of supply, why on earth do you think you can invade the Kuriles and succeed? You couldn't resupply or reinforce Suva so I don't know why you think you could do the same so close to Japan.

If anything I'm close to advocating ABANDONING the "hit 'em where they ain't" strategy. Because if you're leaving a base like Lorde Howe unoccupied you likely have other holes in your defense. The Allies did not turn the tide by LAUNCHING offensives against Japan. They turned the tide by STOPPING Japanese offensives. So far you have yet to do that even on an operational level. All your successes so far have been one day tactical affairs like the Colombo port strike.

I'm holding Canton, in case that wasn't clear.

KB's been spotted, one hex east of Lord Howe. That's about 64 hexes from Baker. How much time would that realistically give me? At 9 hexes per half day, that's about three days before he can get in range. I could start the last leg from Canton to Baker, and if I lose KB, pull them NE to Pearl.

I'll mull it over dinner before sending the turn out. CF's probably in bed anyway.

ORIGINAL: Mundy
KB's been spotted, one hex east of Lord Howe. That's about 64 hexes from Baker. How much time would that realistically give me? At 9 hexes per half day, that's about three days before he can get in range. I could start the last leg from Canton to Baker, and if I lose KB, pull them NE to Pearl.

Just depends when you got spotted. But it sounds highly unlikely for the KB to get back here. I doubt CF would waste the fuel to defend Baker which is just a small outpost well in front of his actual defensive lines.

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: Mundy
KB's been spotted, one hex east of Lord Howe. That's about 64 hexes from Baker. How much time would that realistically give me? At 9 hexes per half day, that's about three days before he can get in range. I could start the last leg from Canton to Baker, and if I lose KB, pull them NE to Pearl.

Just depends when you got spotted. But it sounds highly unlikely for the KB to get back here. I doubt CF would waste the fuel to defend Baker which is just a small outpost well in front of his actual defensive lines.

I think you can land before KB could/would react. Sangeli's bolded comment is why I would land. If CF does react to an invasion of Baker I think it's a win in terms of a waste of fuel using his CV's. However, that doesn't mean he wouldn't send in a surface TF to mess with your operation. I'd be worried about getting whacked by some Japanese CA's. I'd make sure you have some mines and plenty of submarine coverage, you never know, you could score a hit or two if he does react.

I agree with Sangeli in terms of how will you support this long term, but then why not. Take Baker, leave a token force you are willing to lose and bug out with the rest. If CF comes back and takes it, oh well, if not...you've bagged yourself an atoll. If anything, you'll gain some experience with atoll invasions and get an idea how to move forward. If CF does come back at you, that tells you a lot. If he's willing to commit any kind of force to interdict or retake Baker, he'll do it in other areas too. You may be able to set a trap for him in the future.

I say go, but don't land the entire division. You could also regroup, plan a better force composition and try another time.

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Due to these moves, I have an invasion convoy for Baker Island already outbound from Christmas Is.  One USA infantry division, two USMC armored battalions and one artillery.  Base forces and engineers for there are a day behind them.  One BB is in the invasion force and two more are going to bombard.  Two CVEs will provide some air cover against any potential Nettie raids. 

Writing on the phone so just a short note. I´ll tell you more tomorrow morning when I´m at the computer.

You can´t land on Baker with a full ID. Its a 6000 SL Atoll. You will massively overstack. All supply will be instantly burned up due to the overstack and you will lose all troops in the shock attack.

Please listen to me this time. You will lose the entire ID and all the other troops too. [:(]

Without commenting on whether he should or should not proceed, it's important to clear up a technical point here.

The supply penalty for over stacking is (definitely) applied after ground combat. Any supply that was unloaded into the unit(s) from the transports will be available for ground combat.

I am not commenting on whether or not that makes this particular landing a good idea.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The supply penalty for over stacking is (definitely) applied after ground combat. Any supply that was unloaded into the unit(s) from the transports will be available for ground combat.

That's a good point and...

I think the greater concern is the disruption caused to your forces if you choose to over stack an atoll invasion more so than the supply issue. The disruption could cause the failure of the assault more than anything else. Also, are you 100% prepped for the target? If I recall you are, is that correct?

I so need a turn in my own game. [:D]

04 July 1943

CA Baltimore and CL Mobile showed up in East USA and Panama, respectively. I'm sending both to Cape Town and then to Bombay. I want a decent surface force built up there. I'm toying with the idea of sending two of my old battleships over. As a side note, Nevada is undergoing an upgrade in Sydney and is out several months.

I've pulled the plug on the Baker op. I'm weary of worrying about any plan I kick off and would just as soon wait until I can pull stuff off that I don't have to think twice about. They're going back to Pearl, instead of Xmas Is. I'm not worried about that base, as I have two Army divisions there plus a defense battalion. The transports were sighted three hexes ENE from Canton and I didn't want him to have 3-4 turns warning of this. I'm sure CF could figure out where they were going.

At Vava'u, CF sends a surface group in. I get out fairly lightly.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Vava'u at 141,165, Range 6,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 1
CA Furutaka
CA Kako
CL Sendai
CL Natori
DD Kamikaze
DD Hayate
DD Suresushio
DD Kosugiri, Shell hits 1
DD Tadeyame
DD Takakaze

Allied Ships
DD Downes, Shell hits 1
DD Selfridge, Shell hits 2
DD Balch, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
xAP Samuel Adams
xAP Smith Thompson
xAP Thomas Nelson, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1
xAP William C. Claiborne, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

Reduced sighting due to 0% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 0% moonlight: 6,000 yards
Range closes to 27,000 yards...
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 21,000 yards...
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Range closes to 13,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 6,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 6,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Kosugiri at 6,000 yards
DD Selfridge engages DD Kosugiri at 6,000 yards
DD Downes engages DD Kosugiri at 6,000 yards
DD Kosugiri engages xAP Thomas Nelson at 6,000 yards
DD Balch engages CL Sendai at 6,000 yards
DD Balch engages DD Takakaze at 6,000 yards
DD Kosugiri engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
DD Kosugiri engages DD Selfridge at 6,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
xAP William C. Claiborne sunk by DD Takakaze at 6,000 yards
CL Natori engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
CL Sendai engages DD Balch at 6,000 yards
DD Takakaze engages DD Selfridge at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
Magazine explodes on DD Balch
DD Balch sunk by CA Kako at 3,000 yards
DD Takakaze engages DD Downes at 3,000 yards
DD Kosugiri engages xAP Thomas Nelson at 3,000 yards
DD Kosugiri engages xAP Smith Thompson at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CA Kako engages DD Selfridge at 2,000 yards
DD Kosugiri engages DD Downes at 2,000 yards
CA Kinugasa engages DD Selfridge at 2,000 yards
CA Aoba engages DD Selfridge at 2,000 yards
CL Natori engages DD Selfridge at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
CA Kako engages DD Selfridge at 3,000 yards
DD Takakaze engages DD Downes at 3,000 yards
Allied Task Force Manages to Escape
Task forces break off...

He doesn't dare pursue, as he'd get swamped by SBDs and TBFs. As it is, they've vanished anyway. I noticed the Jug production line has started, so I'll be comfortable on that front. They had no droptank capability until July started, too. Now they can escort my naval bombers all the way. (9 hexes)

I'll just sit back and grow carriers on my ranch. Victorious is in the yard for at least three months, getting a massive AA upgrade. 20mms have increased at least fivefold and a bunch of 40mms are also being installed.

Hornet's slowly healing up. It seems slower at Auckland than it did at Gisborne. I have two very aggressive ASW groups patrolling just east of Auckland and they've already beaten the snot out of two subs up there. I think he's hoping to catch Hornet when I finally get her out.