Matrix Games Forums

Yes I do indeed grow bold.  [:)]

i'm sorry but only short notice
I'm too pissed to post anything more
ground combat makes me #%@&@$#$ !!!!!
I did everything ok - even asked Mogami for consultation - sent him my savegame
redeployed HQs
rested troops at changsha
when i noticed all is ready i pull trigger to see:


Ground combat at Chungking
 
Japanese Deliberate attack
 
Attacking force 766715 troops, 8173 guns, 1183 vehicles, Assault Value = 15306
 
Defending force 223671 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 7002
 
Japanese max assault: 15130 - adjusted assault: 4975
 
Allied max defense: 6117 - adjusted defense: 5325
 
Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 3)
 
 
Japanese ground losses:
51461 casualties reported
Guns lost 1159
Vehicles lost 35
 
Allied ground losses:
4464 casualties reported


supply requirements differs significantly every turn
troops do not draw combat supply from base - all major HQs and 60k at changsha + 120k+ above requirements in coastal ports
again troops were penalized and lost 25% of combat value  - next 2 weeks will be strenght regaining
i stay at chungking 6th month and i'm close to throwing my notebook out of window
i should have 2:1 today again  - chungking shouls be taken 3 months ago in most pesimistic variant
what the F**** is this ?

meanwhile i lost 40 helens at benares - my escort chose to stay at home [:(] that day
and i managed to hit hard enemy DM/ML TF west of PM 
 

My initial thought is not that the IJA did anything wrong you were very very close to a 1:1 there the Chinese AV looks like it wasnt attrited enough.
 
Are you round the clock bombing and switching to ground support on the day of the attack ?
 
The only thing I can think of is that it is physically not possible to supply 750,000 Japanese at Chungking over the roads but as you have checked it I am at a loss. 

Yeah, This is actually a big step forward, just 350 adjusted assault points from 1-1... You will get it eventually.

Keep it up !!!

common guys be serious - this is f***********************************!
i'm furious  you don't want to hear what I shouted when saw the result

i should have 11-12k adjusted value and 2:1
due to unknown feature i need to bring max overkill
I have all china army + burma + southern available - should i bring Home island or kwantung  looks like 4-5 big un its needed  - unadjusted 20k
almost 40 big units - in theory fully supplied - with whole china full of supplies
i did not bombed as it puts supplies in negatives and under current version troops do not have surplus supplies
i wanted max fresh troops before attack

obvious bug - troops do not draw supplies
after attack very deep in red
also weird thing

average div unit needs 1.4-1.5k supplies
after attack their req was 2.6k ///from my memory this value was in earlier version standard amount of supplies carried by jap inf div////
next day 1.7
2 day later 1.5
with req going down also available suppy goes down - NO SURPLUS SUPPLY - they move supply to F******* rear bases which are full of it

there will be no land attack till Matrix fix what they broke
i need ap 15 days to go back to full strenght
game will be halted at this point till patch correcting supply routine

Um I could be misreading what you are saying Sneer but I am not convinced this is broken
 
My understanding is that units in combat (subject to or commencing any attack) immediately operate off of a higher supply scale and actually use a lot of supplies in the attack. (therefore they need to draw it if possible over the transport network on the turn in question)
 
So just because a unit is in the green the day before the attack while not bombarding or doing anything  does not mean they will be in the green when they actually attack and the required supply increases because they are attacking (I thought it was 2x for combat elements at least). i.e. because they are attacking the required supply increases and if they cannot draw it forward immediately they operate with reduced supply....drawing enough supply for 750k attacking troops is difficult if not impossible over the Chinese road system
 
So the turn after an attack where you have been in combat all units should be in the red unless you have a major supply hub close enough to draw supplies until the in combat supply status fades over the next three to four days.
 
Basically what I am saying is I dont think it is possible in China to have 750,000 men supplied for an offensive over the road network.
 
As most of your supply sources are road trasnport away it is unlikely that your ground forces can draw sufficinet supply over the road network in time to get back to green immediately on the turn of the attack.
 
The combat requirement for supplies drops away over time which is why you see the supply draw drop off but the troops do consume a lot of supplies in that attack phase.
 
I have fought in China in this same scenario once and on that occasion my opponent had 400,000 v 400,000 at Chungking and he basically used airpower to take the city and it took 12 months to do it.
 
I dont think I am being especially clear sorry

Andy, would you mind to look into ground combat again thread? (i checked all my units and none of them doesn't have 2x supply)

Basically what I am saying is I dont think it is possible in China to have 750,000 men supplied for an offensive over the road network.

I would say that this is the key comment. I doubt it would have been possible for keeping such a Japanese army well supplied.

As for allied side... well the game starves those Chinese units itself. Chinese production is not good at all. So, If an IJN gets all the bonuses for their offensives what is the point of having China in the game in first place.

Ground combat system screws both ways. (I do not want to rant about IJN infantry men garrisoning atolls... that is a [:@][:@][:-][:(] .... there you will really need odds to even capture the place)

Anyway keep up the AAR [;)]

Um I could be misreading what you are saying Sneer but I am not convinced this is broken

you need to look closer to my post in main thread as well as up to date combat in this AAR

My understanding is that units in combat (subject to or commencing any attack) immediately operate off of a higher supply scale and actually use a lot of supplies in the attack. (therefore they need to draw it if possible over the transport network on the turn in question)

i have more than enough supply at sian and changsha as well in cpastal bases - i already pointed that - but troops do not use it

So just because a unit is in the green the day before the attack while not bombarding or doing anything does not mean they will be in the green when they actually attack and the required supply increases because they are attacking (I thought it was 2x for combat elements at least). i.e. because they are attacking the required supply increases and if they cannot draw it forward immediately they operate with reduced supply....drawing enough supply for 750k attacking troops is difficult if not impossible over the Chinese road system

they are over req every day - most of these troops were 3 weeks ago at changsha they could bring it with them - problem is that in changsha they did not accumulated supplies - i have 250k surplus supplies in china - should be ok for 1 attack ???

So the turn after an attack where you have been in combat all units should be in the red unless you have a major supply hub close enough to draw supplies until the in combat supply status fades over the next three to four days.

after attack they are red one day - no supply loss to ANY!!!! base in china - nothing was drawn!!!!!! next day after they are filled without problems - so does it work ok or not

Basically what I am saying is I dont think it is possible in China to have 750,000 men supplied for an offensive over the road network.

we talk about machanics so question not in place
or exactly as in plac as allied 4e hammer tactics - leave it alone ok ?

As most of your supply sources are road trasnport away it is unlikely that your ground forces can draw sufficinet supply over the road network in time to get back to green immediately on the turn of the attack.

i lost over 6 months there - there should be possibility to stockpile supplies meanwhile for 1 attack ??? - again i don't see problems with supplies going to changsha in any amount

The combat requirement for supplies drops away over time which is why you see the supply draw drop off but the troops do consume a lot of supplies in that attack phase.

it is known issue i had no problems with ANY!!!! land combat till change in supply routine
damn i have fastest manila/singapore in PBEM record for GOd sake!!!
problem is that earlier thay keep accumulating supplies that was used as "combat supply" now they don't do it

I have fought in China in this same scenario once and on that occasion my opponent had 400,000 v 400,000 at Chungking and he basically used airpower to take the city and it took 12 months to do it.

you fought before supply routine changed - doesn't count for me
500 helens is unable to stop chinase numbers rising during 6 months

I dont think I am being especially clear sorry

I think you are wrong - even very wrong

AAR will be stopped after 2 weeks game time till Matrix solve it
Aztez I'm sorry
I'm almost addicted to this game and belive me I don't want to do this
but I see no choice - too many of my units is involved there for too long and chinase in chungking will not starve - their numbers rise

ORIGINAL: Sneer

AAR will be stopped after 2 weeks game time till Matrix solve it
Aztez I'm sorry
I'm almost addicted to this game and belive me I don't want to do this
but I see no choice - too many of my units is involved there for too long and chinase in chungking will not starve - their numbers rise

Sad to hear that the game has stopped. I have experienced a lot of "bad" things with the ground combat system in my games too. (especially the one with Vorsteher, Hawker and now FDR) The ridicilious fatigue/distruptions levels + crazy stubborn defenders which just wohn't surrender, etc). Yes, those things are frustrating but I kind a glad that I continued. [:)] Also, Erstad really kicked my butt in China with those shock assaults. That was very frustrating too but thankfully he stopped and the game is very enjoyable at the moment.

Just a thought... maybe you two could agree on somekind of ceasefire in China? I mean IF you think Chungking will be hopeless to conquer than maybe you could reorganize/withdraw your troops to new locations. This way the Chinese operational theatre would not become the decisive one.

cease fire would be biggest victory to allied in this game - troops are needed elswhere soon
i could go for karachi - i assumed it would not be ok and decided to limit myself to china
spend lots of time , resources - my air offensive costed me about 600 army bombers - 400 to ops
endless amounts of supply
now long after schedule i want to finish it
i should easily reach 2:1 with gathered force

That is exactly my point. I doubt he could launch any serious offensives in China anytime soon.
 
You do control Burma and Southern India so basically China is one big POW camp. Meaning that you could use troops elsewhere once needed!

i want to use them all not half of them 

ORIGINAL: Sneer

i want to use them all not half of them 

That would be a problem than [:)]

Anyway just a thought from my own experience. I think we both lost thousands of aircraft in battle over Kweiyang and Chungking. Well hopefully you guys are able to continue. Witp is not perfect and I have grown somewhat "immune" of it's shortcomings.

me too especially soon I will face ubercap and i plan to live with it
i got used to 4e hammer
basicly only one Kendari is safe in southern perimeter
and big hammer will destroy japan air force within next half of year in india 1:1 losses will not let me live long
but i want to do what i should be able to do

Yeah, it can be frustrating. (Try to take an atoll with +2 IJN Divisions guarding... well... [:-])

My point was that the game can be still enjoyable with shortcomings and such. You two could agree on somekind of an solution to keep the game going.

Good luck though.

we will wait i think
for me supply issue is obvious "to-fix" for matrix

Maybe Raver would agree to going back to 1.80. I'd hate to see this AAR die.

It would also be interesting to see that last attack at Chungking played with 1.80 - while I believe you're right that the supply system is borked now but running the turn under 1.80 might confirm that.

i'm not sure if it was n0t earlier change
initial attacks at chungking were badly too

this AAR will not die - i can promise