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ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Daughter got me "The Generals" (Thomas Ricks) to listen to in the car on the way to work. His basic thesis is the US Army moved away from battlefield relief of generals and everything went to shit for a while.

According to him...the good guys:

Pershing
Marshall (There is even a adjective "marshallian" which, as far as I can tell means "yo' shit don't stink")
Eisenhower
Patton (with flaws)
Ridgeway
O P Smith (Marine commander at Chosin)


The bad guys:

Montgomery
Taylor (in later years)
MacArthur (the whole time)...and his wife, somewhat effeminate son, family dog, the Fillipino maid.......
Westmorland
Sanchez
Pretty much everyone associated with 90th ID at the start of Normandy campaign


I'm not done yet. Haven't got to GWI, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama or Grenada. Poor Sanchez got mentioned alreay and the Vietnam War just ended. [:D]

From my limited experince in the military ... it is a politcal machine and thus I propose that politically incorrect "bahhhstards" like Patton would be drummed out of the service in a heartbeat. Now recruits have a "stress card" if the Drill sergent is "too abusive"

I might propose that the mindset of Westmorland still exists today and why we spend blood and billions of dollars of treasure in long MIC's thinking that the enemy will see that we our superior and give up .. so far since Korea/Vietnam this has not worked. One might say Schwarzkopf's blitzkreig broke that mold, but in the end we got into an economic war of attrition/LIC with Iraq that ended up with a second MIC, and still we are in a war of attrition with these folks supported by Iran.

Generals will always fight the last war supported by a cast of charecters who agree with them and confirm their appointments. Then the *(^(*%^ hits the fan and greatness arises. Although I would contend that WWII was the last time this paradigm has shaped our military.

Great subject and read .. The good news is that my military days are long behind me ...[8D]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.

Yes, forgot about the Presidents.

FDR gets good marks from Ricks

Truman took too long to sack MacArthur..hard to argue with that.

Johnson and JFK are blamed for the Vietnam war..along with Taylor

Nixon gets credit for at least knowing what he wanted to do.

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I wonder how many times Fleet Admiral Mandrake would have been relieved...by Marshall or King or God knows who.

How many days are you into this war?

The little girls are back from Idaho. D'oh. I think they both plan to be Solicitor General becasuse they seem to argue for fun.


FAM: Did you take a shower?

SGJr(IV): Yes.

SGJr(III): You did not, you were just in there 1 minute.

FAM: Did you get all the crevaces?

SGJr(IV): What crevaces?

FAM: Never mind. Ask your mom.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I wonder how many times Fleet Admiral Mandrake would have been relieved...by Marshall or King or God knows who.

How many days are you into this war?

454 (455 if '42 was a leap year)

Overview

I have a rare day off and Rord Admirar Nerson is either chopping wood or captured by the Anaszi...bah. I am curious to see how our boys on Taytay are doing,

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.

Cap never met him, so the formality is unnecessary.
He may be familiar with his brother Court Marshall, though ...

The bad guys:

Montgomery

An American who doesn't like Montgomery? Really?

What about Slim?

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I have a rare day off and Rord Admirar Nerson is either chopping wood or captured by the Anaszi...bah. I am curious to see how our boys on Taytay are doing,

Yes. I'm wondering if they survived or if they were riquidated.

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.

Yes, forgot about the Presidents.

FDR gets good marks from Ricks

Truman took too long to sack MacArthur..hard to argue with that.

Johnson and JFK are blamed for the Vietnam war..along with Taylor

Nixon gets credit for at least knowing what he wanted to do.

I wasnt around then but I remember reading in one of the "history" books that Truman waited until the Republican nomination for Prez passed, because McA could of had the Republican nomination if he wanted it. Truman's people didn't think McA would lose and the results sort of speak for themselves... Chicago Tribune says Dewey beats Truman!!

ORIGINAL: moore4807

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's "General Marshall", Captain Mandrake.

Yes, forgot about the Presidents.

FDR gets good marks from Ricks

Truman took too long to sack MacArthur..hard to argue with that.

Johnson and JFK are blamed for the Vietnam war..along with Taylor

Nixon gets credit for at least knowing what he wanted to do.

I wasnt around then but I remember reading in one of the "history" books that Truman waited until the Republican nomination for Prez passed, because McA could of had the Republican nomination if he wanted it. Truman's people didn't think McA would lose and the results sort of speak for themselves... Chicago Tribune says Dewey beats Truman!!

OMG - if MacA had been elected president, he would have been in postion to use the atomic bomb he wanted to use on the Chinese during the Korean war![X(]
Never thought I'd be grateful for a slick political trick, but Truman did the right thing there!

From what I hear MacArthur DID want to be president. Some Texas oil types formed an exploratory effort. I didn't go very far.

MacArthur planned to go to Washington himself and leave his clone in command in the Far East. Crevah baahhstard.

ORIGINAL: sprior

The bad guys:

Montgomery

An American who doesn't like Montgomery? Really?

What about Slim?

[:D] Actually, the author was quite fair to Montgomery. He only mentioned him as an exception to the pattern of Eisenhower sacking generals when they weren't team players. Montgomery at times was nearly insubordinate under Ike's command but he couldnt fire him because of the alliance.

Ricks cited at least one US general who thought Montgomery handled the northern end of the Bulge well.

The author also cites a source who believed Ike allowed Montgomery to go ahead with Market Garden in order to prove his weaknesses. That seems a bit hard to believe.

As for Slim, it's already the mid 1980's in the book and Slim hasn't been mentioned. Most likey he wont be. [:)]

An interesting view on how Brits see Americans. Not for the faint of vocabulary.

nearly insubordinate under Ike's command

Monty wasn't a team player, he was too egotistical for that. His great contribution to the war was insistsing that Overlord was widened from 3 beaches to 5. Can you image in 3 beaches on D Day? Ugh. Omaha meets Anzio.

Slim hasn't been mentioned

That's a shame. Get Defeat into Victory if you haven't already read it.

ORIGINAL: sprior
Omaha meets Anzio.

Omazio? Anzaha? [&:]

ORIGINAL: sprior

nearly insubordinate under Ike's command

Monty wasn't a team player, he was too egotistical for that. His great contribution to the war was insistsing that Overlord was widened from 3 beaches to 5. Can you image in 3 beaches on D Day? Ugh. Omaha meets Anzio.

The Book Patton: Ordeal and Triumph by Ladislas Farago highlites very well the US feelings about Monty. The lack of inititive at the Falaise pocket allows thousands of Germans to escape. The Bridge Too Far debacle from many in the US perspective was an opporujnity for Monty to have the same glorious opporujnity that Patton had sweeping France, but to be the first to cross into Germany. It failed miserably for many reasons. From my personal perspective most of the failures had to do with Monty's personality. Then the final impression is laid at the the Battle of the Bulge. Monty is in the opinion of American Generals is slow again to initially react. The capper for American Generals was Monty's statements taking credit for the victory with "American help". As the American's view it .. Patton's 100 mile advance in 2 days during winter weather relieving Bastonge was a pretty key factor for breaking up the offense.

From an American perspective [Right or wrong] Monty's ego overall cost a lot of American lives as a less selfish General might have made the sacrifice of ego to let Patton breech the Rhine at Metz. I might suggest that a better political stance might have been to let Patton's offense stall first and then execute Market Garden. As it is the US units 82nd and 101st Airborne gain lots of folklore participating in the largest failed paradrop operation.

Probably the biggest misunderstanding in my opinion for the US in WWII was that the Commonwealth had already taken tremendous casulties to that point of the war while the US were just getting wet behind the ears. Thus the US units were much more capable of trading blood for space and time. Something Patton was very willing, if not enthusiastic to do. This was a constant balance for Ike I beleive and a fundemetnal source of conflict besids egos.