Andy Mac v PZB ....The Allies Fight Back

[aztez]

Here is how the game started by Wobbly.
 
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=680156&mpage=1&key=India
 
 
 
...than ADavidB took over.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=811541&mpage=1&key=Wobbly
 

[aztez]

...and here is the thread by Nomad.
 
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=886652&mpage=1&key=PzB&#903588

[Andy Mac]

My proposal on Corsairs reasonable or not ?

> I have decided I will not be using Marine Corsair Sqns on my Carriers
> at present. It would be unfair and slightly gamey to do with this
> quickly after the Kami threat was determined.
>
> IRL the allies did end up using Marine Sqns in this way to combat
> Kamis placing 10 Sqns on USN Flat tops. As a result I would propose
> that as of 1st September 44 I be allowed to place up to the 10 historc
> Marine Corsair Sqns on Carriers but only F4U 1D's not F4U's.
>
> 3 months feels like the right command and control loop for the kami
> threat to be recognized and preventative measure to be taken.
>
> Is this acceptable I seem to have caused another round of WW3 on the
> whole Corsair of carrier issue on the boards !!!!

[MkXIV]

I really don't see why this is unreasonable. Look at it this way, He is ordering his planes to freak'n fly into your ships.... and some people think that putting Corsairs on Carriers is odd [8|]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My proposal on Corsairs reasonable or not ?

> I have decided I will not be using Marine Corsair Sqns on my Carriers
> at present. It would be unfair and slightly gamey to do with this
> quickly after the Kami threat was determined.
>
> IRL the allies did end up using Marine Sqns in this way to combat
> Kamis placing 10 Sqns on USN Flat tops. As a result I would propose
> that as of 1st September 44 I be allowed to place up to the 10 historc
> Marine Corsair Sqns on Carriers but only F4U 1D's not F4U's.
>
> 3 months feels like the right command and control loop for the kami
> threat to be recognized and preventative measure to be taken.
>
> Is this acceptable I seem to have caused another round of WW3 on the
> whole Corsair of carrier issue on the boards !!!!

[spence]

According to the Marine Corps Aviation Website the main reason the Navy didn't put Marines on carriers was that they'd already filled them up with Navy pilots and planes.
(The Marine aviators were somewhat annoyed at being "left behind" after the end of the Solomons Campaign essentially left them with nothing much to shoot at within range of their bases).

Obviously in this game you do not have the problem of no place to "fit" Marines on your carriers.

[spence]

Also according to the Marine Aviation Website the Commandant got the Navy to agree to provide a CVE Division for his aviators sometime in mid-44 but they didn't actually get it up and running til May of 45 off Okinawa.

[ChezDaJez]

He is ordering his planes to freak'n fly into your ships.... and some people think that putting Corsairs on Carriers is odd

The issue is a historical one. The US put F4U-1 Corsairs onboard the USS Essex when she was commissioned in 1943 however the aircraft wasn't suitable to carrier ops due to its very poor low speed characteristics and its propensity to bounce on landing. That meant the chances of a hook skip were greatly increased. Plus its vicious stall characterisitics in the groove meant greatly increased ops losses.

The US removed them from carriers and gave them to the Marines while they worked on a solution for the carrier based Corsairs. By the fall of 1944, they had modified the Corsair for better carier performance and began placing them into carrier units.

The question in Andy's game is whether placing Corsairs on carriers at this point would be gamey. My perosnal opinion is a strong yes and no. If the squadron is equipped with F4U-1Ds, I say use it on carriers. That is the modified carrier version. If it is the F4U-1, I say no due to its poor carrier performance.

Andy, use the F4U-1D on carriers as you refit groups with it.

Chez

[Andy Mac]

Almost all of my Sqns are upgraded I am talkign to PZB about it at present.
 
OK this next turn my Carriers are restricted to range 2 I dont want to waste any pilots
 
B29's are hitting several targets around Sulawesi
 
The fleet goes forward
 
I am not committing to a target yet Tarakan or Samarinda are both viable I will make the decision when I get there !!!!!

[Andy Mac]

OK quiet turn I move a little closer my LR Search aircraft pick up the IJN Surface fleet sitting just out of range.

I have peformed an audit of the fleet units (ignoring CVE's) currently operating off of Borneo

OK

Fighters Max is 699 and I currently have 554 operational fighters with the fleet (438 Hellcats, 57 F4U1D's, 13 Corsair VI and 66 FM 2's) so c 80% capacity I have 1 54 plane replenishment group with the fleet that will lift the total to 87% ready there are 688 pilots available in sqns at moment with average xp of 72 (lowest is VF 2 on Lady Lex at 62xp highest is 803 Sqn on Formidable with 85 xp) with the airgroups embarked.

Dive Bombers Max is 249 current strength 188 and 258 Pilots so 75% capacity all Helldivers. I have no replenishment Groups left with the fleet but will bring forweard one of the 2 gps currently operating around Noemfoor and several Marine Helldiver units are ready at bases in Northern NG tpo rotate in as required. Ave xp is 75

TB Max is 208 I have 109 available and 170 pilots so readiness 54% [:@][:@][:@] I have 1 replenishment Gp of 56 TBM's that has flown in to a replensihment Carrier and should lift me back to 75% readiness but I need to be carefull with my TB's. Ave XP is 76

Between Saratoga, Yorktown, Intrepid and Bellau Wood all in refit on the West Coast there is another 242 aircraft with average xp of 75. (mixed types)

Lastly I have 4 Navy Helldiver Sqns, 6 Torpedo Sqns and 3 Hellcat Sqns totalling about another 350 naval aircraft that are currnetly beached and pilots moving towards Rabaul where I am going to concentrate my other Sqns.

I also have 4 USMC Night Fighting Hellcat Sqns that can perform day cap they are either with the fleet or moving towards Rabaul.

Basically the fleet is in ok shape but this is my last batch of pilots.

Replenishment Gps exist witht he fleet 54 FM2's, 56 TBM's and 56 F6F's

On other Duties 54 FM2's capping Entiwok for some unknown reason, Bombing Noemfoor 108 Helldivers all other replensihment gps are empty at present and will need to be refilled and trained after conclusion of this operation.

Andy

[Andy Mac]

Bugger a 36 plane Sqn I thought were TBM's are actually Helldivers that means only 73 TBM's in the fleet they really suffered against KB.
 
Even the 56 plane replenishment gp will only lift it to 120 given the casualties they will take against BB's that is nasty. My CVE's all have about 9 each but most of the CVE's are on convoy escort duty now.
 
During the refit period to come I will reorganise all my CAG's to try and reharmonise them as they have became a little disjointed.
 
Andy

[MkXIV]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

He is ordering his planes to freak'n fly into your ships.... and some people think that putting Corsairs on Carriers is odd

The issue is a historical one. The US put F4U-1 Corsairs onboard the USS Essex when she was commissioned in 1943 however the aircraft wasn't suitable to carrier ops due to its very poor low speed characteristics and its propensity to bounce on landing. That meant the chances of a hook skip were greatly increased. Plus its vicious stall characterisitics in the groove meant greatly increased ops losses.

The US removed them from carriers and gave them to the Marines while they worked on a solution for the carrier based Corsairs. By the fall of 1944, they had modified the Corsair for better carier performance and began placing them into carrier units.

The question in Andy's game is whether placing Corsairs on carriers at this point would be gamey. My perosnal opinion is a strong yes and no. If the squadron is equipped with F4U-1Ds, I say use it on carriers. That is the modified carrier version. If it is the F4U-1, I say no due to its poor carrier performance.

Andy, use the F4U-1D on carriers as you refit groups with it.

Chez

We are in agreement here on this, I meant yes to the F4U-1D and no for the F4U-1, sorry if there was some confusion.

[Andy Mac]

I am already using the three USN F4U1D sqns but I will hold off for a while on using marines.
 
As you can see from tha bove analysis my Fighters are in resonable if not perfect shape and this will improve when the last Hellcat CVR Gp replenishes to bring the other sqns up to strength.
 
I have decided after getting my TF's ashore to withdraw all carriers and screen with >10% Sys to West Coast for an extended refit.
 
This is long overdue and will give time for my Sqns to rebuild.
 
Andy

[aztez]

Propably wise move to send to WC. US CV's will be in better shape that way and they are ready for the important battles ahead.
 
Just be careful though with the invasions. As I said earlier Japanese have quite a few good airbases nearby.

[Jim D Burns]

Hi Andy,

Can you do me a favor and post a screenshot of your aircraft replacement pools with fighters being the predominate air frames shown?

Thanks,

Jim

[Andy Mac]

OK the fleet is going in !!!!
 
Plan attached last turn was relatively quiet
 
 

[Andy Mac]

oops

[Andy Mac]

Jim there you go

[Andy Mac]

And 2

[Andy Mac]

Last one no fighters but the top pools

[Jim D Burns]

Thanks Andy,

So for the US I count these as first line fighters:

F4U-1.....150
P-38J.....180
P-47D.....90
F6F.....144
F4U-1D.....100

For a total first line fighter production as of July 1944 of 714 for the US.

Did I miss any others you think qualify as first line fighters given the date?

Jim