Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: bo

No AI no sale is a statement of fact not a threat.

Do you not enjoy playing against humans? [:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: bo
Yo Mac nobody told you to shut up did they, these forums are just what they are supposed to be a place to get your views across without animosity to anybodys point of view. It is not a threat to say no AI no sale, a person is just saying I can do without this game if there is no AI, that is our perogative as buyers of anything that we have to put out our dollars for. If Steve decides to go without the AI fine with me, but Steve is a little smarter than that, he knows and Matrix knows that there is not enough of you board game players to make a profit and isnt that what its all about with Matrix "make a profit".
No AI no sale is a statement of fact not a threat. I guess I will just have to go through life playing Strategic Command with a very good AI. And by the way Battlefront's sales are booming with the SC series. Oh well!

Willy

Shut up? Perhaps not. But I've been thoroughly castigated as one of 'the impatient few' for proposing that the first release not worry about the AI quality. The way it stands now, Steve is anxious to finish the AI first because A)He has great faith in his ability to do so and B) He is being goaded by these 'AI first' people. But let me ask you a question; Will the AI be better if it is forced into this MWiF product #1; which has already been re-scheduled to the point of being indefinite? Or would it be better with MWiF product #1 out of Steve's way, allowing him to concentrate on the AI without deadline?

My previous point was that the boardgame WiFers could threaten not to buy if they have to wait several more years and pay extra for an AI that they do not need. But then where would that get us? Alternate threats? Promises, threats, call them what you will -it places unnecessary pressure on Steve; who with Matrix have a better sales projection than you or I.

I guess I will just have to go through life playing Strategic Command with a very good AI. And by the way Battlefront's sales are booming with the SC series. Oh well!

Willy

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
Conversely, I really have to question why someone would PREFER playing a computer over a human.

Hum...

The same reason that I have for not playing MMORPG : family constraints...
Do you have a family life ? A baby maybe, who will require your attention at any time and
whose requirements are obviously more important than playing a game ? As my opponent, how would
you react if I quit the game unexpectedly with no other warning that I may quit at any time ?
I guess that after trying, you'd just later ignore me as a player.

That's for the netplay part.

As for the PBEM part, well ; that could work. But it's just not my way of playing.
I like to have the game proceed at a steady pace (when I can put aside some time to play), and yes,
in netplay I would not bear myself as an opponent.

This mostly leaves the AI as an opponent who will not whine everytime I have to leave, and will
wait patiently for my return.

Guess what ? I'm sure a lot of people around are like me!
Played the game in their twenties, when they had no special constraints, but now married, with
children and a serious social life. And still in love with the game which they'd like to play...

Yves

That is the main difference between the AI camp and the PBEM/Netplay camp to stigmatise something that isn't so clear cut :
 
The PBEM-Player want a MWiF that help them play more easily than what they are currently using to play WIF PBEM (Vassal,ZunTzu, Cyberboard,WiFFedit...)
The AI-Player want a MWiF so he just can play WiF...
 
That is the simple reason why a decent AI is important, if the AI is bad the AI player wont buy but the PBEM player wont care. The only thing that is important for the PBEM side is that the rules are correctly implemented and the save work.
 
A funny thing is that the players that currently have access (from other sources but still) to programs to suit their way of playing are the ones that are pushing for an earlier release, without consideration to the others players that have nothing to play WiF versus a computer opponent...

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: bo

No AI no sale is a statement of fact not a threat.

Do you not enjoy playing against humans? [:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

As a matter of fact, no I dont.

Except in cooperative games I find that playing against humans had a nasty competitive aftertaste to the game that I dislike. When playing with my brother we usually share the control of each side to lessen the confrontation part.

Humans tend to be not reliable and suffer displeasant emotionnal burst when confronted with extreme statistical results (favorable or not), they usually contest a lot of the rules and are prone to bail out of a game when losing or grumble or cheer and taunt when winning.

They are usually not avaliable to play when you have a few minuts avaliable, late at night or at lunch break.

There are humans I like to play with, those I know well, with whom I can freely speak and have a drink and laugh while pushing carboard counters around a map. Thoses are not on the internet, they are in real life...

The 3 main modes of play require the same basic code. You should never forget that the underlying code that is common to all modes of play is/was 90+% of the work.

The additional code for the PBEM system is to modify the sequence of play (very slightly - not much work to achieve that) and the interface for the Standing Orders. Plus the ability to send and receive emails.

The additional code for NetPlay is substantially more because of the need to accommodate all the possiblities of communications problems. Even if those happens rarely, the program has to be able to deal with it cleanly. The other major programming task for NetPlay is keeping all the different computers up-to-date with what is happening on the other machines.

The AI Opponent code doesn't have the problems as the other 2 main modes of play, since the whole game is played on one computer. But of course, the code to make decisions has to exist.

I think of the different player 'groups' as being similar to customers in a restaurant, where each one wants to be served first. Hey, the restaurant doesn't stay in business unless it can serve all its customers - with a smile[:)]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
June 1, 2009 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum
Accomplishments of May
...
Player’s Manual
...
I have processed most of my notes on file data structures into the appendices. To complete the appendices I want to list all the files included in the released product, with a simple explanation for why they exist.
...

I really like that idea [:)] - thanks !

ORIGINAL: HansHafen
No one has been able to develope an AI worth a darn to date. If you know of a wargame with a good one, tell us.

Sid Meier's Civilizations III, IV, Alpha Centauri.

Company of Heroes has an excellent AI.

Rise of Nations. There are others. [:)]

ORIGINAL: yvesp

The same reason that I have for not playing MMORPG : family constraints...
Do you have a family life ? A baby maybe, who will require your attention at any time and
whose requirements are obviously more important than playing a game ?

My play time tends to vary. If I've got a lot of non-gaming commitments, I tend to play games that require less time, certainly not something like WiF.

As my opponent, how would you react if I quit the game unexpectedly with no other warning that I may quit at any time ? I guess that after trying, you'd just later ignore me as a player.

I'd likely encourage you to try PBEM as an alternative.

As for the PBEM part, well ; that could work. But it's just not my way of playing.
I like to have the game proceed at a steady pace (when I can put aside some time to play), and yes,
in netplay I would not bear myself as an opponent.

I think that you may be underestimating the value of PBEM. Find the right partner, and he won't mind waiting a week (or month) for a turn. Don't get me wrong, however. I'd much rather play FTF, in the flesh. My very best friends are all wargamers, the overwhelming majority of them from Central Texas.

This mostly leaves the AI as an opponent who will not whine everytime I have to leave, and will
wait patiently for my return.

Guess what ? I'm sure a lot of people around are like me!
Played the game in their twenties, when they had no special constraints, but now married, with
children and a serious social life. And still in love with the game which they'd like to play...

Yves, I was always aware of the folks who preferred not to play against people. Twenty-five years ago, they would come to club meetings to hang out and talk about wargames. I didn't really get it, in that they had these games that they played solo, but wouldn't go near a game against another person. In many cases, they appeared to know the rules and had some interesting insights into play. I'd also make note of the fact that companies like AH tried to accommodate them with solo-only games.

Then computers came along, and the pendulum swung way out in the other direction, in the favor of play against the AI, rather than people. That's where I got off the train, BTW. I purchased a computer in the late 1980s to work on an instrument rating for my pilot's certificate, but I didn't play turn/hex based wargames on it. What did get my attention were games like Task Force 1942, Close Combat and Sid Meier's Gettysburg, titles that a lot of folks believed weren't real wargames because they didn't have turns and hexes! [X(]

And so it's gone, at least for me. I enjoy playing against people because I sincerely believe that it's more challenging. And I genuinely treasure the social and fraternal aspects of wargaming as I've experienced it over the last forty years. In that respect, it's really no different than playing golf with your buddies, or bridge with a circle of friends. Of course, you can turn those into solitary adventures as well, but I can't imagine why anyone would do so. [:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

As a matter of fact, no I dont.

Except in cooperative games I find that playing against humans had a nasty competitive aftertaste to the game that I dislike. When playing with my brother we usually share the control of each side to lessen the confrontation part.

It sounds like you simply don't enjoy competition, cards, country-club sports, whatever. [:)]

Humans tend to be not reliable and suffer displeasant emotionnal burst when confronted with extreme statistical results (favorable or not), they usually contest a lot of the rules and are prone to bail out of a game when losing or grumble or cheer and taunt when winning.

Yeah, there are some real jerks out there. My remedy to the situation is to not waste my time on them. I guess some folks would consider me something of a snob in this respect.

When I win a game, my number one goal is to convince my opponent that he won.

When I lose, my number one goal is...REVENGE! [8D]

There are humans I like to play with, those I know well, with whom I can freely speak and have a drink and laugh while pushing carboard counters around a map. Thoses are not on the internet, they are in real life.

Yeah, and those relationships are what it's all about to me, competition and comradery. And an AI isn't gonna serve as any more of a replacement for humans, in those regards, than a blow-up doll is gonna replace my wife! [;)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: bo

No AI no sale is a statement of fact not a threat.

Do you not enjoy playing against humans? [:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

Hi PoE, must be honest with you I have never played against a human on the computer with a hex war game, It just might be the best way to play a game but I would not know, I do play COD2 quite often, in COD2 I was looking for a game where I could experience a liitle bit of what our troops went through in WW2, but you know what I found, ten year olds doing somersaults back flips jumping from high buildings and shooting you between the eyes on the way down, I am sure that is what are troops experienced [:)] in combat. If the game is going to be as good as everyone thinks then maybe I will give PBEM a shot.

Willy

ORIGINAL: macgregor

ORIGINAL: bo
Yo Mac nobody told you to shut up did they, these forums are just what they are supposed to be a place to get your views across without animosity to anybodys point of view. It is not a threat to say no AI no sale, a person is just saying I can do without this game if there is no AI, that is our perogative as buyers of anything that we have to put out our dollars for. If Steve decides to go without the AI fine with me, but Steve is a little smarter than that, he knows and Matrix knows that there is not enough of you board game players to make a profit and isnt that what its all about with Matrix "make a profit".
No AI no sale is a statement of fact not a threat. I guess I will just have to go through life playing Strategic Command with a very good AI. And by the way Battlefront's sales are booming with the SC series. Oh well!

Willy

Shut up? Perhaps not. But I've been thoroughly castigated as one of 'the impatient few' for proposing that the first release not worry about the AI quality. The way it stands now, Steve is anxious to finish the AI first because A)He has great faith in his ability to do so and B) He is being goaded by these 'AI first' people. But let me ask you a question; Will the AI be better if it is forced into this MWiF product #1; which has already been re-scheduled to the point of being indefinite? Or would it be better with MWiF product #1 out of Steve's way, allowing him to concentrate on the AI without deadline?

My previous point was that the boardgame WiFers could threaten not to buy if they have to wait several more years and pay extra for an AI that they do not need. But then where would that get us? Alternate threats? Promises, threats, call them what you will -it places unnecessary pressure on Steve; who with Matrix have a better sales projection than you or I.

Mac I can hear your frustration dripping in every word you write, I am frustrated too, normally when I first heard about this game I could have cared less if it ever came out. Its players like you and many others who have gotten my interest in the game in the many posts I have read, you seem to be taking your frustrations out on some of the people who would like to see a reasonable AI, I think your feelings are a little misguided. I would think if you were honest with yourself that just maybe you could put a lot of blame on Matrix for whats going on. October 23rd 2003 does that ring a bell Mac, thats the day Matrix and ADG agreed to do a computer game of WIF, now if I am correct this October it will be six years in the making, and your going to blame this on AI people.
No way, I blame Matrix for this, I dont know what kind of contract Steve agreed to [ not a knock against Steve] and dont care but whatever it was it sure screwed up the implementing of this game, He should have had a lot more help then he has received over this five and half year period. If any of you have any guts and common sense and are willing to really express your feelings you know what I am saying is correct. Is it going to help to say what you think of course not, is it going to make Steve feel good of course not. The truth is the truth so be it.

Love your picture of the Godfather Corleone good lord I hope you haven't asked him to feed me to the fishes [:D]

Willy

To be perfectly right I am waiting for this game since 1999...
 
... that's when CWiF started... then it become MWiF... and we waited again... now it is due in 3 to 6 month and guess what ? we will still wait...
 
But, just a question, will the CWiF beta tester be credited in MWiF ?

ORIGINAL: bo

Hi PoE, must be honest with you I have never played against a human on the computer with a hex war game, It just might be the best way to play a game but I would not know,

Hi Bo,

I would much rather play a turn/hex based wargame FTF than PBEM. The only real advantages to doing it on a PC is that it's a lot easier to introduce FOW, that, and of course, you can play someone on the other side of the world. I find the GUI for PC wargames (turn/hex) to be a recipe for eye strain and needless gameplay errors. I want my maps back, laid out on a table, with unlimited "zoom levels," and darn it, I want my counters to push around on the map. I believe that those elements are as much a part of wargaming as they are of the monopoly games that I played as a kid:

http://www.l2designgroup.com/MG/Mega%20 ... 0Info.html

I do play COD2 quite often, in COD2 I was looking for a game where I could experience a liitle bit of what our troops went through in WW2, but you know what I found, ten year olds doing somersaults back flips jumping from high buildings and shooting you between the eyes on the way down, I am sure that is what are troops experienced [:)] in combat. If the game is going to be as good as everyone thinks then maybe I will give PBEM a shot.

Have you ever played "Red Orchestra?" It's an FPS that's been tidied up for fidelity's sake. You can download it via the Steam client. It can be played solo, but it's a whole lot more fun played online.

BTW, please don't take my comments as mean-mouthing computer games. I've tried in my own way to help with the development of several of them, albeit the RT category, such as those rooted in Sid Meier's Gettysburg. More recetnly, I've been making maps and scenarios for Conquest of the Aegean.

But when it comes to hexes and turns, the PC game in question is gonna have to be pretty special for me to give it more than a passing look, War in the Pacific, for instance, or WiF. And the prospect of playing really complex strategy games like that against the AI pretty much leaves me kinda nonplussed.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

To be perfectly right I am waiting for this game since 1999...

... that's when CWiF started... then it become MWiF... and we waited again... now it is due in 3 to 6 month and guess what ? we will still wait...

But, just a question, will the CWiF beta tester be credited in MWiF ?

Hi Greywolf, 1999? Did someone attempt to do this game on a computer in 1999?

Willy

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

To be perfectly right I am waiting for this game since 1999...

... that's when CWiF started... then it become MWiF... and we waited again... now it is due in 3 to 6 month and guess what ? we will still wait...

But, just a question, will the CWiF beta tester be credited in MWiF ?

Hi Greywolf, 1999? Did someone attempt to do this game on a computer in 1999?

Willy

Working for Australian Design Group, Chris Marinacci worked on putting this on the computer for 7 years starting in 1996. I inherited his 100,000 lines of code when I was hired in July 2005. There are now more than 300,000 lines of code. To differentiate Chris' work from what I have done, I refer to the former as CWIF and the latter as MWIF. CWIF is a commercial product in its own right and can be purchased from ADG.

Please take this post as it is intended... an open discussion of the benefits vs constraints of hex based wargames on personal computers.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

The only real advantages to doing it on a PC is that it's a lot easier to introduce FOW, that, and of course, you can play someone on the other side of the world.

Benefits of simply playing Face To Face Hotseat on the same computer

• No Lighting Problems [8D]
• No Kids, Cats, Dogs, etc. jostling counters [:(]
• No need for a special cabinet, closed room, or sacred area when ending a playing session
• No more frantic 'HONEY, HAVE YOU SEEN MY GAMING TWEEZERS? THEY WERE RIGHT HERE LAST WEEK'
• No making sure the dining room table will be available for 12 hours on Saturday
• No concerns about stack strength if your opponent adds faster than you can (or even faster than they can [:-]
• No counting out loud slowly when figuring stack strength if your opponent counts slower than you do [>:]
• Ability to have multiple games with multiple opponents concurrently
• Fewer disputes about rules ... the computer is the final arbiter
• No accidentally using the same unit in multiple attacks.
• No forgetting weather modifiers
• No forgetting other modifiers
• No wondering if randomly drawing good counters is coincidence or enemy action
• No angst over concern that your lucky draws are being considered possible enemy action
• No wondering if your opponent's 'lucky' die should have an 'accident' [X(]
• No 'accidentally' bumping the table and getting better attack opportunities as no one is really quite sure which hex that short range bomber was in
• No more finding the 'Yamato' under the couch and realizing why you have not won a single naval engagement

Benefits of playing Net Play using some kind of voice over IP application (such as Team Speak)

• No travel time ... more play time
• Makes it more convenient to play for that 1 hour you can both overlap between other obligations
• You can still hear your opponent squeal, grumble, curse as you make the killing move.
• Still quite a bit of social contact
• You don't have to buy chips and drinks for everyone
• You can play against the opponent with no social graces (or hygiene) that your wife does not want in her house and whose house you do not want to go to
• You can play with anyone in the world.

Benefits of playing PBEM over and above NetPlay

• You can play your turn when it suits you
• More opportunities to ponder your next move during your daily work commute
• Better play as you have much less time pressure to finish your move 'so we can get this turn done before I have to go'
• In the case where you can only arrange to meet rarely, you *may* actually make more game progress in any given month

Benefits of playing AI (even if the AI is not going to win at WIFCON)

• Work on your counter strategies... seeing the AI react will either teach you what to do or what not to do
• Work on your strategies to pull off a large scale invasion (land or sea)
• Get more familiar with the timing needed to to accomplish long term preparations (This can be a multi year process)
• When someone accuses you of masturbation, you can say 'Yes, but only intellectually' (ITS A JOKE!) [:D]
• New players can, at least, play in the shallow end of the pool until they feel comfortable playing with the experienced players --- No one likes getting their A$$ kicked and not have any idea why after the fact.

There are clearly downsides to everything.

These, I feel, are some compelling reasons to want this product even if you have never enjoyed playing a hex based computer wargame.

This is why I am looking forward to this game.

Thoughts??

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

I want my counters to push around on the map. I believe that those elements are as much a part of wargaming as they are of the monopoly games that I played as a kid:

I cannot argue with that point. In fact, I agree with it. However, once you get used to the interface and see how much more information is at your fingertips (without using tweezers), it might be something we can look past.

Good lord Sumurai how do you really feel [:D] I dont like it when people like you don't explain in detail and keep us noobies guessing to what you meant. [:D] Great explanation really appreciate it and I would like to learn all the ways to play if I ever learn to play this monster of a game.

Willy

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

To be perfectly right I am waiting for this game since 1999...

... that's when CWiF started... then it become MWiF... and we waited again... now it is due in 3 to 6 month and guess what ? we will still wait...

But, just a question, will the CWiF beta tester be credited in MWiF ?

Hi Greywolf, 1999? Did someone attempt to do this game on a computer in 1999?

Willy

Working for Australian Design Group, Chris Marinacci worked on putting this on the computer for 7 years starting in 1996. I inherited his 100,000 lines of code when I was hired in July 2005. There are now more than 300,000 lines of code. To differentiate Chris' work from what I have done, I refer to the former as CWIF and the latter as MWIF. CWIF is a commercial product in its own right and can be purchased from ADG.

Hi Steve is CWIF a computer game of WIF? And if so why would ADG want another company to compete against like Matrix?

Willy