Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: abj9562

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

ORIGINAL: abj9562




Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

why is a million pounds now, and a million pounds in six months any different from 2 million pounds in 6 months?

Simply put it won't be a million pounds 6 months later. Reviewers and the general public drive these decisions not us. As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential. Matrix made their decision based on solid marketing data not personal desire. Anecdotal evidence on all of our parts does not add up to what Matrix determined is necessary for the game to be financially viable. So if Matrix says they must have an AI then I say let it be. For me a successful game is more important than AI vs non AI.

well said however i have one problem - and i have highlighted and underlined it - i personally dont think the majority of the market are these people. Hell, i dont even think its going to be on a shelf, and there would be no such thing as an impulse buyer - so all your market just disappeared!!

Leaving all of us on here, our friends and anyone who plays the board game - as the majority - not the only customers.

And as neilster has already said - its not going to happen, i just guess i wanted matrix or steve to say why, because to me it makes perfect sense

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: abj9562

ORIGINAL: Neilster



As opposed to the non-AIers with their 'superior attitude' that MWiF doesn't need an AI - humans represent the ultimate challenge - use PBEM - and are disgruntled that people could want an AI... [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

Neilster it is not a 'superior attitude' issue and that remark is snide to say the least. Their is a simple reality Matrix has to face. They must maximize sales on the initial release to recoup investment and make a profit. Otherwise why are they in business. When games are relesed to subsegments of a market in a piecemeal fashion costs go up for packaging. Reviewers ask why feature x, y, and z are missing. Including an AI is just sound management provided the delay, additional investment vs potential loss of customers is acceptable. This is purely an accounting and marketing issue.

You must have missed my emoticon and the clear, tounge-in-cheek parody of undercovergeek's original post. He got the joke anyway...[8|]

You also musn't have read any of my earlier posts that essentially agree completely with you.

Cheers, Neilster

I did read the earlier posts and I did miss the emoticon. I thought you had jumped ship and changed your colors. I am glad to know we are still in agreement. Is there a recommended punishment for my sin? [:)]

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

and it might happen, im planning on rounding up the non-AI-ers and flying us all out to Hawaii and putting our case to Steve in person [:'(]

Why not offer the plane ticket money to Steve to be on the Beta Test squad without any obligations [:D]

because i want to go to Hawaii dammit!! [:D]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

ORIGINAL: abj9562

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek




why is a million pounds now, and a million pounds in six months any different from 2 million pounds in 6 months?

Simply put it won't be a million pounds 6 months later. Reviewers and the general public drive these decisions not us. As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential. Matrix made their decision based on solid marketing data not personal desire. Anecdotal evidence on all of our parts does not add up to what Matrix determined is necessary for the game to be financially viable. So if Matrix says they must have an AI then I say let it be. For me a successful game is more important than AI vs non AI.

well said however i have one problem - and i have highlighted and underlined it - i personally dont think the majority of the market are these people. Hell, i dont even think its going to be on a shelf, and there would be no such thing as an impulse buyer - so all your market just disappeared!!

Leaving all of us on here, our friends and anyone who plays the board game - as the majority - not the only customers.

And as neilster has already said - its not going to happen, i just guess i wanted matrix or steve to say why, because to me it makes perfect sense

Your premise is faulty, the market exists. If Matrix targets it or not is their decision. Your statement presumes they will not use it.

I did read the earlier posts and I did miss the emoticon. I thought you had jumped ship and changed your colors. I am glad to know we are still in agreement. Is there a recommended punishment for my sin?

Cash, gold, precious gems, dusky babes...that sort of thing will be fine [;)]

Cheers, Neilster

Hé, who will buy a Chess program nowaday without an AI ? afterall it is a boardgame, right ? :p

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: amwild

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
But to answer the question directly, we have MWIF scheduled for release as a download in the spring of 2006.

This brings me to the question of MWiF's availability as an off-the-shelf boxed product.

So, will MWiF be available as a boxed product at any stage?

The short answer is that I do not know. How the product is distributed is David Heath's decision.

research research research ABJ9562

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: amwild


This brings me to the question of MWiF's availability as an off-the-shelf boxed product.

So, will MWiF be available as a boxed product at any stage?

The short answer is that I do not know. How the product is distributed is David Heath's decision.

research research research ABJ9562

All I can say is read, read, and read, I stated earlier it is Matrix's decision. As I said...

Matrix made their decision based on solid marketing data not personal desire. Anecdotal evidence on all of our parts does not add up to what Matrix determined is necessary for the game to be financially viable. So if Matrix says they must have an AI then I say let it be. For me a successful game is more important than AI vs non AI.

and

Your premise is faulty, the market exists. If Matrix targets it or not is their decision. Your statement presumes they will not use it.

Seems to me I am restating what Steve said... it is Matrix's decision. My point simply restated is whatever matrix deems necessary for this game to be successfull is the only important issue. If it fails there is no product 2, 3, 4, or more. PC's are the platform of the future for this game. I and many other will still buy the boxed version but ADG needs to expand the market to stay in business and so does Matrix. So lets cheer both of them on to success instead of our personal desires. I much prefer a win win situation than some win and some lose.

ORIGINAL: abj9562
As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential.

If that's what you think, beyond the gratuitous, you're vastly underestimating the the following of WiF.

ORIGINAL: macgregor

ORIGINAL: abj9562
As long as reviewers and off the shelf impulse buyers are the majority of the market the initial impact of no AI will kill future sales potential.

If that's what you think, beyond the gratuitous, you're vastly underestimating the the following of WiF.

I may be underestimating the Wif following but perhaps your cutting the market segment short. To compare board games sales to PC game sales is apples and oranges. They are both fruit but for different tastes. In my estimation this is a specific attempt to expand into new markets and not stay in the same dwindling group of board gamers that we are.

@ Macgregor
 
I see you like GEICO but I am a USAA member for 30+ years. Sorry but GEICO never comes close.

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I and many other will still buy the boxed version but ADG needs to expand the market to stay in business and so does Matrix. So lets cheer both of them on to success instead of our personal desires. I much prefer a win win situation than some win and some lose.

DITTOS

Pessimists and optimists generally get to the same place but optimists are happier on the journey.

Pessimists are better at handling unforseen problems because they worry when there is nothing to worry about.

Optimists are better at handling surprising success because they expect miracles.

Realists find the balance between the two.

At this point, IMO, pessimists should be worried that the game will not live up to expectations.

At this point, IMO, optimists should be hoping that sales will be great and MATRIX / Steve will be rewarded for taking the risk of computerizing this game

No one really knows what the market is for this game. Everyone has an idea. The market doesn't even know for sure because the product is not finished.

Face it, if initial sales are good, retailers are more likely to want the game on the shelves. Hard core wargames are making headway into the market... Consider Total War, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron, Supreme Ruler 2010. All of these are what I would call hard core wargames. They require assimilation of lots of information and considerate thought in order to play well.

Maybe it IS time for hex based wargames to make a comeback. If so, this may be THE GAME to make traditional wargames have their day in the sun. I hope so.

You see, there are benefits beyond just WIF if this game is a huge success. (I know that is heresy, but I believe it [:D])

It needs to be RIGHT. It needs to be right on all fronts. Being that it does not rely on reflexes and does not give the adrenaline rush of games like Quake, StarCraft, and Rise of Nations, it MUST do the things it does do WELL.

I would bet that when things start coming together, that Matrix will open PrePurchasing to have hard numbers to show off to possible retailers so they can get this thing onto the shelves. At least I hope so.

Sorry for going on and on.

Well said SamuraiProgrammer.

The entire argument of what Steve should do is superfluous, as he has already announced his course of action. That being said, these speculations on sales imperatives I find insulting of the WiF community, as it totally overlooks them in favor of an uninitiated demographic, for which you want to market a product that will be to some degree WiF in name only(the pbem anyway -thus adding insult to injury).

NVM

Wow this is getting hot and heavy, the rift is getting wider and wider, I dont think Steve is going to be swayed by anyone, he is committed to a great game, he and Matrix will make all decisions about AI or no AI good AI or just passable AI. I wrote a post back a little bit didnt get any reaction so I guess I was just misguided in my feelings [as usual]. Now because the tone is getting slightly nasty I will try again. What is your problem you no AI people? You have Vassar which seems to be very good to play WIF, we AI people have nothing yet. Maybe we could play Vassar but you pretty much have to know most of the rules which I dont have the time or energy to learn that is why I was counting on an AI to help me with MWIF. I said before stop blaming AI people if there is such a person and blame the right people and that is Matrix for not giving Steve the extra help he needed to complete this game. The reason this game is taking so long [6 years] is because Steve should have brought in other programers but he didn't and thats the truth and you all know it! If this game is going to be running into 2010 and you know it is then this problem is on them [Steve and matrix] Put the blame where it belongs, please use some common sense because it is surely lacking here.

Willy

ORIGINAL: abj9562
I may be underestimating the Wif following but perhaps your cutting the market segment short. To compare board games sales to PC game sales is apples and oranges. They are both fruit but for different tastes. In my estimation this is a specific attempt to expand into new markets and not stay in the same dwindling group of board gamers that we are.

While I would allow that traditional over-the-table wargaming is not as popular as it once was, at least when compared to the growth of computer wargaming, boardgaming in general is not dwindling, and in fact has continually been increasing in popularity. Articles from many magazines and websites will easily confirm this, for anyone who wishes to take the time to check.

Regarding your first point about WiF in specific, I think you neglect one aspect of the game and its potential appeal. Harry and Greg created a game that has in the subsequent years been honed to a surprising degree, and that labor of love shows in the game as it exists. To tinker and tamper with it in order to widen its appeal runs the risk of losing more than just the pre-existing WiF community. Such an approach could also muddle the consistency, the balance, and the rewarding expererience that emerged after so much play. Why would Steve waste the millions of hours of over-the-board play that essentially amount to playtesting for this product?

ORIGINAL: bo
Now because the tone is getting slightly nasty I will try again. What is your problem you no AI people? You have Vassar which seems to be very good to play WIF, we AI people have nothing yet. Maybe we could play Vassar but you pretty much have to know most of the rules

i dont think anyones being nasty - its a discussion, people are allowed to agree and disagree!! Im a no AI person, but i have absolutely no knowledge of WiF so vassal is as useless to me as it is to you - ive never even seen it in a box!! my plan is tutorial, tutorial, find an opponent on pbem with same skill as me and lets enjoy the game!!

no nastiness, no arguements just a great game to be played over the internet...... with no AI ........ cough, cough [:'(]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Stop feeding the Troll, please...

very constructive, moves the discussion right on that does

well done

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

ORIGINAL: bo
Now because the tone is getting slightly nasty I will try again. What is your problem you no AI people? You have Vassar which seems to be very good to play WIF, we AI people have nothing yet. Maybe we could play Vassar but you pretty much have to know most of the rules

i dont think anyones being nasty - its a discussion, people are allowed to agree and disagree!! Im a no AI person, but i have absolutely no knowledge of WiF so vassal is as useless to me as it is to you - ive never even seen it in a box!! my plan is tutorial, tutorial, find an opponent on pbem with same skill as me and lets enjoy the game!!

no nastiness, no arguements just a great game to be played over the internet...... with no AI ........ cough, cough [:'(]

He he I hear you Geek, I will change my opinion just a little nasty, where it is getting testy is the blaming the stalled game on AI people, I really did think that you could use Vassal if I am wrong then I appoligize to you and all other players. [BUT WHY IS IT THAT YOU AND OTHER PLAYERS DONT BLAME WHO I BLAMED] A little guts would be helpful and if you feel I am wrong tell me where. PLEASE!

Willy