Matrix Games Forums

Mechasaurian wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 1:05 pm

zgrssd wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:25 pm The problem is that a lot of the easy deposits have been mind out during planet generation.

Those lines where it says "attracted miners"? Those are not idle lines.
Those single ruins you find in the middle of nowhere? Those were mining towns, whose resources (potentially) has run out.

There is the rare planet where you can see that very well, as each lone ruin overlaps with a deposit.

Frankly, the in-universe realism/plausibility angle does not have a leg to stand on.

The Galactic Republic - a massive, interstellar industrialized civilization, uncountably larger than our own - was unable to exhaust the natural resources despite being on the planet for centuries.

They (mostly) exhausted the easily accessible resources. The ones a you can actually get too with the limited industrial base on the planet.

For every "list of reserves", you need to split it into groups based on how hard they are to mine. It makes a little difference if it takes 10$/kg or 100$/kg to mine.

zgrssd wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:34 pm They (mostly) exhausted the easily accessible resources. The ones a you can actually get too with the limited industrial base on the planet.

For every "list of reserves", you need to split it into groups based on how hard they are to mine. It makes a little difference if it takes 10$/kg or 100$/kg to mine.

There is, AFAIK, zero evidence in the flavour text that his happened. Feel free to correct me on this.

Plus, since it seems I have to repeat this:

I don't care that much about the "realism" side of this. Vic already acknowledges wildly unrealistic and wacky stuff central to Shadow Empire, such as vast front lines held by tiny forces. Plus, Soil Demetalization is really weird - you're sifting sand and dirt through this thing?! And somehow filtering enough metal to make hundreds of tanks and airplanes?!

Which means that the "realism" outcome of what you are arguing (even assuming you're correct in your assumption about everything being mined out - there's no evidence for this in game AFAIK, anyone feel free to correct me), is not what we see in game. The outcome is everyone being stuck fighting with sticks and stones for all eternity because industrial civilization is impossible. That's obviously not what Shadow Empire is trying to be.

So, since Shadow Empire is already a wildly unrealistic game on a number of counts, it's the player experience that matters most. Hence why I am noting the experience of players being pushed to race soil demetalization and depend on it, and everything important being inside the cities.

Super big fine tuning patch.

Wow! I hope you really nerfed metal resources (in number and life-span) after the demetalization tech changes, because just mining metals under the old system was totally inadequate. Demetalization was the only way to have a sustainable, long-term economy.

Vic wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:48 am Super big fine tuning patch.

Wow indeed! This is a VERY interesting patch. I've always thought the difference between various environments should have bigger impact and more different feel from each other than they do. This patch may be a huge step in that direction.

Thanks Vic,
-Mark R.

Guys. I can already say the finetunings will be finetuned when i get back from holiday. I think I am moving in the right direction, but there are a lot of moving parts that need to match.

Feedback provided so far is already excellent. I have already spotted some oversights like some of the ammo usage for aircraft not being increased like the others. As well as ammo factory production being a bit too low. And ammo usage versus energy usage. Please be patient.. and update will follow in the week of 10th of august.

Once i feel its sort of okay we'll move the open beta to steam too.

Please do report any issues, especially with all the new rules around farming & water ( PH, heavy metals, salinity, etc..)

best wishes,
Vic

Wow Vic!

This is not fine tuning, it's a major gameplay update!!

Thank you so much, it's going clearly in the right direction! (influence of planet variables on gameplay!)

Yes, there will be some balance to find, but it's clearly awesome!

Thank you!

I really like the new changes from the last few patches. I'm looking forward to what it will look like after the fine tunings!

Vic wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:06 pmI have already spotted some oversights like some of the ammo usage for aircraft not being increased like the others.

You might want to consider leaving aircraft ammo usage where it was. It seemed aircraft ammo usage was excessive before. Perhaps leaving it alone now will bring it into alignment. (Just my gut-feel- not based on any historical data or anything.)

-Mark R.

Ammo usage was increased by a factor of between 5 and 15 for most model types. The previous gap in ammo use between ground forces and aircraft was large, but outside of bombhatches, not that large. If they hadn't been touched, aircraft would've gone from one of the least ammo-efficient model types to easily the most ammo-efficient.

The ammo use of guns was increased by a factor of 15, rockets & precision bombs by 10 and and bombhatches and aircraft MGs by 5 (no increase for air-to-air missiles), so aircraft still got a significant relative improvement in efficiency at killing subunits compared to their main competitor in that role, which is tanks (leaving aside energy weapons, which weren't touched yet).

I think this is great in terms of making the planet characteristics having greater effects on play. Nerfing the De-Metalisation plants is a good idea as well...they where way over powered....and reduced the need for strategic planning and play....

All the new features are neat, but I'm particularly happy to see Demetalization moved up in the tech tree and metal deposits increased.

GraphicsAlt Folder issues: Some folders are still not used in place of vanilla, like C:\Matrix Games\Shadow Empire\graphicsAlt\shadow\complex1\model

Sorry Vic but if you can check again what's wrong?

For reference, you worked on the issue on patch 1.21h

-Fixed oversight with AltGraphics with graphics loaded on the fly within reports; all graphics should be replaceable now (Pymous)

(I have not tested with all subfolders to check if it's a global issue with subfolders or not)

Thank you!

I don't have time to test or play right now (and unfortunately won't any time soon), but I absolutely love the moves to make wildly different planet environments play differently.

And since no one else has said it, the moves to make Solar Panels require strategic placement and not being generic build-anywhere-and-everywhere assets is very welcome. One thing I find in large games is that terrain really doesn't feel like it matters outside of combat and basic logistics - any two identically-sized zones feel mostly interchangeable once you've got whatever roads you want built. Making some areas better for some activities than others can make the idea of wanting to steal that plot of land over there feel more meaningful, even if deposits and settlements are still most of what we'll be fighting over. Well, and maybe water a bit more now too...

[ETA: does (or should?) Bunkerization have any impact on the new environmental lethality aside from the indirect effect of possibly reducing structural damage?]

This game with all the fantastic updates is becoming a must have (already was for me) for any, serious, 4x gamer. imho

This is a small nitpick, but the asset build description (and its mouseover) for Solar Panel Field says "Pay attention that Energy output depends on solar irridiance." - that should probably now also mention hex rain levels too.

I have not had time to play this new patch. It's killing me!
I really want to see how the metal supply works out after the new soil de-metalization nerf.

I'm on Steam open beta but the main menu screen still shows v. 1.21h instead of 1.21i after updating. Never had similar issue before. Is there anything I can do to install the latest beta?

Emx77 wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:40 pm I'm on Steam open beta but the main menu screen still shows v. 1.21h instead of 1.21i after updating. Never had similar issue before. Is there anything I can do to install the latest beta?

Grab and manually install the .zip file in the first post.
It can take hours to days for a update to make it through stream. Here on the Matrix forums you get betas as .zip long before Steam is ready to deliver them.

The update isn't available on Steam yet, as Vic went on vacation, hasn't set up a way to roll back to the previous beta patch on Steam, and didn't want to drop such a major patch when he isn't going to be around to fix it if there's a game-breaking issue.