Matrix Games Forums

Casualties taken have nothing to do with the odds. A side's losses are a result of the number and types of weapons firing at you. The odds are used to determine if the defender retreats. Exceptionally low odds can cause extra disruption and fatigue for shock attackers. A lot of extra casualties can be taken when forced to retreat.

I have read your AAR Canoerebel but I don't like to write messages in people's AAR- even if invited. (Maybe I should sent them a PM as thanks for their efforts.) The Chinese sure do tally up an enormous pile of wrecked corps and have expensive retreats through no fault of your own.

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex
Casualties taken have nothing to do with the odds.

Exactly!

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

How come more Japanese units don't form when the Kuriles are invaded in early 42? [:'(]

Because there are already enough historical Japanese forces available in Japan (well, they're restricted, but they're there if the Japanese player did not use them elswhere) to counter any Allied offensive in the vicinity of Japan? And Japan receives additional invasion reinforcements if Japan proper is invaded in 1942. Hm, OT here[8D]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Because there are already enough historical Japanese forces available in Japan (well, they're restricted, but they're there if the Japanese player did not use them elswhere) to counter any Allied offensive in the vicinity of Japan? And Japan receives additional invasion reinforcements if Japan proper is invaded in 1942. Hm, OT here[8D]

"bah"

[8D]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

... but how does a 37:1 attack for the Chinese achieve 3:1 ratio in losses while a 2:1 Japanese attack achieves 12:1 ratio of losses? 

Does troop experience and leader rating figure in to the equation?

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

... but how does a 37:1 attack for the Chinese achieve 3:1 ratio in losses while a 2:1 Japanese attack achieves 12:1 ratio of losses? 

Does troop experience and leader rating figure in to the equation?

U mean casulty rates? if so, Yes. From all i gathered they indeed very much figur in to it. Just about the only thing that doesnt seem to affect losses is odds.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

There has been some discussion in the thread about if art takes to few casulties as a way to possibly counter the massed art. Just throwing an example from 1 of my pbems games into the mix.


Ground combat at Nanyang (85,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 210 troops, 17 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Defending force 94058 troops, 493 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2263

Japanese ground losses:
62 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
90 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:...
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
36th Chinese Corps...
59th Chinese Corps...
77th Chinese Corps...
48th Chinese Corps...
30th Chinese Corps...
7th Chinese Corps...
55th Chinese Corps...
90th Chinese Corps...
41st Chinese Corps...
12th Chinese Corps...
92nd Chinese Corps...
22nd Group Army...
3rd Group Army...
6th Chinese Base Force...
5th Chinese Base Force...
31st Group Army...
21st Group Army...
5th War Area ...
2nd Group Army...
4th Construction Regiment...






Ground combat at Nanyang (85,45)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 72787 troops, 413 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2258

Defending force 164 troops, 17 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Allied adjusted assault: 1390

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 1390 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
211 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 7 (3 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Units retreated 1


Allied ground losses:
51 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (0 destroyed, 4 disabled)


Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:...
77th Chinese Corps...
36th Chinese Corps...
48th Chinese Corps...
55th Chinese Corps...
30th Chinese Corps...
41st Chinese Corps...
7th Chinese Corps...
90th Chinese Corps...
59th Chinese Corps...
12th Chinese Corps...
92nd Chinese Corps...
5th Chinese Base Force...
5th War Area ...
2nd Group Army...
6th Chinese Base Force...
31st Group Army...
22nd Group Army...
3rd Group Army...
21st Group Army...
4th Construction Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment...


Kind regards,

Rasmus

ORIGINAL: goran007


people stop asking for a balanced game because that is stupid. Chinese survived 1942 only because Japan didn't want to occupy any more land. Says who? You? Japanese advances in China pretty much ceased in the first half of 1940. If it was so easy why wouldn't they have gone ahead and conquered it then when they had no other "fish to fry".

On other hand, if someone who plays Japan does want China asap and he is willing to spend pp for bringing troops from Korea or Russian borders, he should be able to do it with ease.

Considering number of barrels for a offensive that a typical 'death star' would have, casualties are by far less that it would have been. Baloney! If that were true, then the entire German Army Group Center would have disappeared on June 22nd, 1944. The Russians used 31,000 artillery pieces and rocket launchers in their barrage that day (many times what Japan ever owned), plus 2600 attack aircraft. But they still needed 1,200,000 troops, 5200 tanks, and most of a month to finish the "Destruction of Army Group Center". And Russian Guns a lot heavier and better than any Japanese Artillery ever was.

IIRC they didn't continue (not sure about order) because 1) the Japs were repulsed at Changsha, 2) they took terrible losses taking Wuhan; 3) the Chicoms launched the Hundred Regiments offensive and then the Japs conducted a large punitive counterattack, diverting them from the southern front.

Japan had approximately 3,200,000 regulars in China. More Japanese troops were quartered in China than deployed elsewhere in the Pacific Theater during the war.

Why didnt Japan took whole China? Probably because of the same reason it didnt attack Russia. They didnt want to wage war on more fronts than needed.

because of B29's flying, when Japan needed it took whatever wanted with ease: 'The second phase of Ichigo began in May, following the success of the first phase. Japanese forces advanced southward and occupied Changsha, Hengyang, Guilin and Liuzhou. In December 1944, Japanese forces reached French Indochina and achieved the purpose of the operation.'(wiki)

Each Japanese division was the equivalent in fighting strength of four Chinese regular divisions (at the beginning of Battle of Shanghai (1937)). (wiki)

Do not underestimate the power of artillery. Ask anyone who was in war and he will probably tell you that if u dont die from it, you will never again be a same man again.

Organisation and leadership of German and later Russian divisions can not be compared with Chinese ones.

Japan didn't try to conquor China because simply that was not the goal. The goal was a diplomatic settlement favorable to Japan. China is too big a country to want to occupy for MOST nations to contemplate occupying in it's entirty. Problem for Japan was Chiang refused to go with the plan. Hence, no peace. Go figure.


As for Arty....the uhm...subject of the thread before polticalization [:D].....one always must be careful with statisical figures. Arty may have been the winner in stat terms but that doesn't make it a solution for all situations. As with anything else, it largely depends on the circumstances. Same goes for air bombardment.

A logistical solution is the best solution but implementing it is the challenge. This is not a new issue to the Team. No reason for anyone to get hot under the collar about it....even if the words "Japan" and "China" are mentioned. [;)]

Available evidence is that Chinese land forces had detiorated in the interim. At the beginning of the Pacific War Chiang foolishly agreed to US requests for an agressive effort around Canton and to commit a lot to the Burma front.
When the Japs attacked in 1942 after repulsing Chiang around Canton they were smartly defeated around Changsha.

I do wonder about the seeming lack of protective effects of fortifications on artillery. IRL being caught in the open by artillery is far more deadly, but in-game it seems as if it makes no difference being in the open or in any level of fortifications.

This is SAIEW in terms of WitP. There has been some discussion on altering it, but any time you involve coding, it gets complicated. Tweaking the casualties for example seems easy. Turned out not to be so easy. I think every programmer on the team has permanent eye strain now. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
8.  If I play the Japanese, I now know how to easily defeat China.  I just save all my Political Points until I can bring all my artillery to bear in China.  Then I methodically destroy the Chinese Army and take all (or essentially all) of the country.  Then I move those units somewhere else - Russia or India if I want to remain on the offensive; or to defensive positions if I want to make my defenses in the Pacific impregnable.  Think how tough it's going to be for the Allies to advance in the Pacific if the Japs have all those Chinese troops stationed at Luzon, Java, Okinowa, Formosa, etc.

9.  In other words, the game goes off on a radical slant that is completely a-historical.  The Japanese devote all their time and attention to China while just doing maintenance work in the Pacific (taking Java, Singapore, the PI and then garrisoning and building forts).  This game become WIC: GE (War in China:  General's Edition) rather than WitP:  AE.  And where's the fun in the Japanese being unstoppable and unbeatable in China? 

In which case you are playing a "game" and not a historical simulation. In your "game" with Miller, Miller has brought a substantial number of Artillery units out of Manchuria. This is a-historical and as the old saying goes a-historical play begets a-historical results....

IRL these are some of the Artillery units Japan had in Manchuria in August 1945...I bet you see a fair number of the units shelling you at Chengchow in that list...

Kwantung Army Artillery OoB during August Storm

2d Heavy Artillery Regiment (A)
3d Heavy Artillery Regiment (A)
Tungning Heavy Artillery Regiment
2d Independent Heavy Artillery Company (A)
1st Independent Heavy Mortar Company

20th Heavy Field Artillery Regiment (A)
5th Independent Heavy Artillery Battalion (D)
8th Independent Heavy Artillery Battalion (D)
1st Independent Heavy Artillery Battalion (E)
13th Mortar Battalion

26th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment
85th Field Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
88th Field Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
90th Field Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
91st Field Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
92d Field Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
100th Field Antiaircraft Artillery Battalion
65th Independent Field Antiaircraft Artillery Battery
68th Field Machine Cannon Company
69th Field Machine Cannon Company
70th Field Machine Cannon Company
71st Field Machine Cannon Company
72d Field Machine Cannon Company
73d Field Machine Cannon Company
74th Field Machine Cannon Company
75th Field Machine Cannon Company
76th Field Machine Cannon Company
77th Field Machine Cannon Company
85th Field Machine Cannon Company

21st Independent Heavy Field Artillery Battalion (A)
27th Independent Heavy Mortar Battalion
1st Heavy Artillery Regiment (A)
19th Heavy Artillery Regiment (A)
7th Independent Heavy Artillery Battalion (D)


17th Heavy Field Artillery Regiment (A)
30th Heavy Field Artillery Regiment (B)
6th Independent Heavy Artillery Battery

10th Independent Field Artillery Battalion
17th Mortar Battalion

11th Independent Field Artillery Battalion
Mutanchiang Heavy Artillery Regiment
15th Mortar Battalion


Which is why when I get around to doing my mod a fair number of these guys will be made to be Permanently restricted. If Japan wants to take units out of manchuria let them take the Infantry and some Tanks...units which actually count towards the garrison requirements.

Has any Allied player tried an alternate strategy in China instead of massing your troops into a small number of hexes to defend in large battles that the Japanese are better suited to fight?  It seems that the troubles the Japanese had in China was not beating the Chinese in stand-up fights, but a problem of holding territory and maintaining supply lines in the rear areas.  This would be better represented by Chinese troops stationed in smaller groupings in longer lines.  When the Japanese move ahead in one location, the Chinese in the other hexes could circle around and cut them off from supply.
 
Duplicating that in the game might require some special rules for Chinese troops like:
 
- Chinese land units can trace supply at 1/2 the normal path penalties to represent their better ability to live off the land or be fed locally.
- Chinese troops travel faster (slightly) over terrain without trails, roads, rails, etc. than other Nation's units.  They would move the same as everyone else on roads, rails, etc.
 
This would allow them to better defend in areas off the major road/rail networks and allow them a limited ability to out-manuever the Japanese in open terrain.  That should allow them some ability to circle around behind deep Japanese spearheads and cut supply.  This will either make the Japanese vulnerable to getting cut off and beat up or keep them more conservative in their advances. 

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Japan didn't try to conquor China because simply that was not the goal. The goal was a diplomatic settlement favorable to Japan. China is too big a country to want to occupy for MOST nations to contemplate occupying in it's entirty. Problem for Japan was Chiang refused to go with the plan. Hence, no peace. Go figure.


As for Arty....the uhm...subject of the thread before polticalization [:D].....one always must be careful with statisical figures. Arty may have been the winner in stat terms but that doesn't make it a solution for all situations. As with anything else, it largely depends on the circumstances. Same goes for air bombardment.

A logistical solution is the best solution but implementing it is the challenge. This is not a new issue to the Team. No reason for anyone to get hot under the collar about it....even if the words "Japan" and "China" are mentioned. [;)]

IMO (as you well know) the logistical solution is one part, albeit a big one, of a miultifaceted approach to changing China...

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO (as you well know) the logistical solution is one part, albeit a big one, of a miultifaceted approach to changing China...

oh i know. I imagined how our last discussion would have played out had we done it over coffee vs. the internet since we were using the same source. (i'm picturing two guys taking and slurping coffee between ramblings.....each person alternatively grabbing a thoroughly battered and dog eared copy of "China's Bitter Victory" and waving it around like a baton while arguing their point.

[:D]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

This is SAIEW in terms of WitP. There has been some discussion on altering it, but any time you involve coding, it gets complicated. Tweaking the casualties for example seems easy. Turned out not to be so easy. I think every programmer on the team has permanent eye strain now. [:D]

I quite know the ease of saying it is unrelated to the effort of doing it!

Maybe because now land combat is improved in other ways it stands out, but I didn't notice it in WITP. In any event, it's a pretty significant issue for the simulation aspect of the game.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: treespider

IMO (as you well know) the logistical solution is one part, albeit a big one, of a miultifaceted approach to changing China...

oh i know. I imagined how our last discussion would have played out had we done it over coffee vs. the internet since we were using the same source. (i'm picturing two guys taking and slurping coffee between ramblings.....each person alternatively grabbing a thoroughly battered and dog eared copy of "China's Bitter Victory" and waving it around like a baton while arguing their point.

[:D]

I'm considering putting together a disertation on China....if for no other reason than to try to disprove some of the general misconceptions and myths about the front that keep getting bandied here and in other threads on the subject.[8|]

But its sunny out and my son has a futbol game this evening so I might have to put that off for another day...[;)]