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ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise this is no comfort to those who agree with you, but this really is David Cameron's fault.

warspite1

What!!?? A Scot blaming the Tories? Whatever next? [:D]

Seriously though, that does not surprise me one bit. The way the whole no campaign has been run has been total and utter bollocks.

Shameful

It was Better Together's to win...it was thrown away. I think it would likely have come back at some point - but it was there to win this time around and the win was discarded.

warspite1

I don't know whether it was there or not - you probably know better than me (although I would not be surprised if the pollsters are totally wrong and its a comfortable victory in the end).

What I do know is human nature. Tell a free person he can choose Yes or No.

He/she decides, you know what I'm not sure? so I will play safe and vote for what I know and vote No.

Then some idiot decides to feed you whole manner of horror stories about the price of groceries to the amount of oil to the moving south of banks - effectively saying you have no choice but to vote NO. Guess what? Said person is now more likely to vote Yes than ever they were.

Why leave arguments - many perfectly sound - until the last minute so that they feel like threats, designed to frighten people into voting one way?? Yeah great work.....

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Yes it really does. I was brought up by my mum to be British - not English (that sentiment came later for certain reasons). My mum, a history buff, fought for her country in the war, her country and its history meant so much to her, and she passed that love of nation to me.

I cannot tell you how upset I am at the thought of the United Kingdom no longer existing on Friday. Its absolutely heartbreaking.

I am genuinely saddened to read this. I am sorry that you will feel you have lost your identify (if only in part) - but I have to say - I do not and have never had that sense of Britishness. Not even when I was in the forces.

warspite1

Thank-you JD.

You never know Warspite1 - it might well stay as is. It's not over till the fat lady sings. Part of me hopes so for people like you who genuinely feel that way - but there is that other part of me I'm afraid.

Either way - I will not be running about bragging about a YES. Even if there's a NO result, life will go on...

Peace [&o]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd



I am genuinely saddened to read this. I am sorry that you will feel you have lost your identify (if only in part) - but I have to say - I do not and have never had that sense of Britishness. Not even when I was in the forces.

warspite1

Thank-you JD.

You never know Warspite1 - it might well stay as is. It's not over till the fat lady sings. Part of me hopes so for people like you who genuinely feel that way - but there is that other part of me I'm afraid.

Either way - I will not be running about bragging about a YES. Even if there's a NO result, life will go on...

Peace [&o]

warspite1

Yes - peace to you too If its a Yes you can buy me a pint of Carling - if its No, I'll get you whatever you're having.

In the meantime, and for the little time there is likely to be left, I give you:

The 2nd Cavalry "Union" Brigade at Waterloo - An English, Irish and Scottish Regiment fighting together [&o]

For those interested in articles and opinions on the Scottish vote from the other side of the pond:

Scotland independence vote could be as close as Quebec referendum: Éric Grenier: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scotlan ... -1.2768093

Gang remember (and not wanting to repeat myself but) I went through this twice in 1980 and 1995.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

However, I don't think i've met anyone who wishes they could go back to the days of lesser independence.

Oh? You've not spoken to most Russians then? [;)]

ETA: To whit:

It's a sort of cognitive dissonance that most people that wanted independence are unlikely to fairly gauge 'what could have been' had a union been maintained. I think they're far more likely to see what novel things they now have than what they've lost forevermore-particularly if the latter is esoteric (global influence, relevance, etc).

I also think there's a different perspective depending on whether you're the 'winner' of independence or the 'loser' of that province / nation state from your union.

Lastly, are there many Russian speakers in Scotland? There may be precedence for someone somewhere giving succor to Russian speakers that are yearning for independence in that area. [;)]

[other stuff written and redacted]

Fair point. No Russians. I think the matter at hand is about the ostensibly ruling factor understanding the desire of the independence seeker - and understanding why they feel independence is a better and viable option. As some one who regards myself as first, British, I do understand why some factions of a 'Union' or 'Empire' wish to stand on their own two feet without outside influence.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
An English, Irish and Scottish Regiment fighting together [&o]

Well, it's to be expected, really. Put an Irish, Scottish and English regiment in the same proximity and a fracas is bound to be started.

[looks at picture again]

Oh....fighting together on the same side? You're right, old bean, that is unusual! [;)]

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

However, I don't think i've met anyone who wishes they could go back to the days of lesser independence.

Oh? You've not spoken to most Russians then? [;)]

ETA: To whit:

It's a sort of cognitive dissonance that most people that wanted independence are unlikely to fairly gauge 'what could have been' had a union been maintained. I think they're far more likely to see what novel things they now have than what they've lost forevermore-particularly if the latter is esoteric (global influence, relevance, etc).

I also think there's a different perspective depending on whether you're the 'winner' of independence or the 'loser' of that province / nation state from your union.

Lastly, are there many Russian speakers in Scotland? There may be precedence for someone somewhere giving succor to Russian speakers that are yearning for independence in that area. [;)]

[other stuff written and redacted]

Fair point. No Russians. I think the matter at hand is about the ostensibly ruling factor understanding the desire of the independence seeker - and understanding why they feel independence is a better and viable option. As some one who regards myself as first, British, I do understand why some factions of a 'Union' or 'Empire' wish to stand on their own two feet without outside influence.

For the self-identified British out there, the prospect of a dissolution (even a voluntary one) of the United Kingdom has got to be a blow.

As an American, the prospect of a state seceding from the union is unfathomable. It simply wouldn't be allowed or considered. There is no legal Constitutional or other method for it and it would be uniformly opposed by all-by force of arms if necessary. At least that's the way that it worked out the last time.

These polls or 'joke ballots' that you see about state "x" seceding from the Union over here are just that-expressions of annoyance with the Federal government. Blowing off steam and letting our opinions of state mistrust of Federal authority be known.

I'm just surprised a bit by how comparatively 'easy' this march to breakup appears to be in the UK. It looks as if the road has been paved and made level for the 'yes' vote to succeed. The Union in the UK seems comparatively less cohesive by its structure than our states over here. Not being judgemental-there's all sorts of different mechanisms for unions-I just didn't realize how comparatively easy this process is in the UK

Hmmm - I do understand your point. I think that times have changed and situations are a bit different. The 19th and early 20th Century were hotbeds of nationalism which aren't so relevant now in such a global atmosphere.

Also, is the point I mentioned earlier, areas craving independence on economic, religious or economic grounds. I do not condone manic independence for independence sake but Scotland does have an historic tradition that makes itself an historic nation with an historical nation identity far, far beyond many more recent unions.

Edit: But. yes, it would be a blow

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Hmmm - I do understand your point. I think that times have changed and situations are a bit different. The 19th and early 20th Century were hotbeds of nationalism which aren't so relevant now in such a global atmosphere.

Also, is the point I mentioned earlier, areas craving independence on economic, religious or economic grounds. I do not condone manic independence for independence sake but Scotland does have an historic tradition that makes itself an historic nation with an historical nation identity far, far beyond many more recent unions.

Edit: But. yes, it would be a blow

Aye, but couldn't you argue that Scotland's nationalistic quest for independence in the 21st century is rather relevant here? In such a global atmosphere, it (Scottish independence) seems all the more irrelevant.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Hmmm - I do understand your point. I think that times have changed and situations are a bit different. The 19th and early 20th Century were hotbeds of nationalism which aren't so relevant now in such a global atmosphere.

Also, is the point I mentioned earlier, areas craving independence on economic, religious or economic grounds. I do not condone manic independence for independence sake but Scotland does have an historic tradition that makes itself an historic nation with an historical nation identity far, far beyond many more recent unions.

Edit: But. yes, it would be a blow

Aye, but couldn't you argue that Scotland's nationalistic quest for independence in the 21st century is rather relevant here? In such a global atmosphere, it (Scottish independence) seems all the more irrelevant.

Quite right CB. That is the question that people in Scotland have to decide today. The vote has only been triggered by two consecutive elections where the majority (in our electoral terms) elected a Nationalist Party. Now it is a straight majority decision as to whether that is really what they want.

If hated rivals Iowa&Minnesota can fight the enemy side by side heck anyone can![:D]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1
An English, Irish and Scottish Regiment fighting together [&o]

Well, it's to be expected, really. Put an Irish, Scottish and English regiment in the same proximity and a fracas is bound to be started.

[looks at picture again]

Oh....fighting together on the same side? You're right, old bean, that is unusual! [;)]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1
An English, Irish and Scottish Regiment fighting together [&o]

Well, it's to be expected, really. Put an Irish, Scottish and English regiment in the same proximity and a fracas is bound to be started.

[looks at picture again]

Oh....fighting together on the same side? You're right, old bean, that is unusual! [;)]

To be fair, I think they probably were fighting between themselves and the French got caught up in it...that's when Britain really gels together. [:D]

On a serious note, I do hope (after whatever animosity there might be) that they continue to work together when it's appropriate and ethically correct to do so.

So have any CMANO scenarios come out of this yet? Defending the GIUK gap without Stornoway, intercepting landings into Oslo and Narvik without assets from Scapa Flow, escorting REFORGER convoys that have to go straight into French ports (or weren't they already supposed to do this), etc?

Go Scots Grey's vote YES on your ballots today. FREEEEDOMMMMM [:D]

If I was Scottish I would vote independence..but as someone in England I say please don't go otherwise we will be stuck with a tory government for ever!!!

ORIGINAL: wodin

If I was Scottish I would vote independence..but as someone in England I say please don't go otherwise we will be stuck with a tory government for ever!!!

I'm not familiar with British political parties. Are Tories liberal or conservative?

ORIGINAL: Treale

ORIGINAL: wodin

If I was Scottish I would vote independence..but as someone in England I say please don't go otherwise we will be stuck with a tory government for ever!!!

I'm not familiar with British political parties. Are Tories liberal or conservative?

To be honest, there isn't that much difference nowadays. [:)]

A little bit of light heartedness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2BKrh43rhI

Warspite1 - you've thrown a rock right throw my window!

I was pretty sure I was going to be elated if it was a yes vote...but after reading your very heartfelt post, I am actually going to have very mixed feelings tomorrow. [&:]

If YES win, I'll be elated but I will genuinely feel for people like yourself who will have a feeling of losing something [&o]
If NO win, I'll be gutted it's the second time Scotland will have chucked this opportunity away - but I'll be happy for you, my mother (who also feels British) and others all over the country. [&o]

Whatever happens - I'm done. It'll happen or it won't and I'll be very confused tomorrow.

I kind of hope you get what you want...but not...that's how confused I am. [:'(]

Anyway - peace to you all. I hope whatever happens we all get on after [&o]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Whatever happens - I'm done. It'll happen or it won't and I'll be very confused tomorrow.

But is it done?

So if there's a NO vote today, what's to stop the pro-YES forces from scheduling a vote next year, the year after that, ..., year after year until the tide ultimately turns their way or one year they just get lucky?

It's a one-way ratchet, right? And what's to stop separatists from keep trying that ratchet until it takes, and locks in place?

If so, isn't independence happening sooner or later? And if so, why not now, just to get it over and done with?