Matrix Games Forums

A few comments

1-The raid was effectively well planned, as the night bombers crippled a base of yours where you had hundreds of Bf-109F´s. Even if you got a good roll, your aircraft would have intercepted with half force. This said, I must find a way to deal with interceptions, as it seems the dice rolls are calculated to all aircraft as a whole, not for each unit.
2-You left your infantry force unprotected in open terrain, despite the fact we all know that there is always a chance your airforce is unable to take off.
3-Currently, the chances of interception are 90% at 0 range and 75% at range limit. I don´t think there is a trouble with the mod. It´s related to the way the game makes the dice rolls for interception. We could increase both to 100%, maybe it´s the better alternative.

I ask you to reconsider your decision, this has been a funny game, and, if you eventually lose it, it´s because of your strategic decisions (to provoke the USSR before the West Front war was over), not because your operational skills, which are fantastic, as ever, and not due to bad luck, which wouldn´t matter. There are new strategic elements in this game, like Japan entry, that could create a lot of new possibilities.
If you keep your decision, I would suggest the Japanese player to take Germany/Italy, as he would be able to coordinate the efforts of the three powers.
All of you agree to increase interception chance to 100% in the next version?

I´ve replayed the turn, just to test what could happen if the Germans intercepted.
When both raids are intercepted, the German losses in the ground decrease by 90%, while British losses are close to 50-55 aircraft and Germans losses about 20 Bf-109F. So yes, what made for the success of the raid was good luck. The RAF Command considered the successful raid on French airfields (where the Germans had 75 Bf-109F stationed) the mainly variable that prevented the Germans from intercepting the raid. The RAF command didn´t see the almost 1000 fighters stationed in Paris (as we didn´t see them). If only the first raid is intercepted than almost nothing changes (only the British lose 3-4 night Bombers.

They crippled a base because the German night fighters did not scramble a one in four event are you saying that you planned your air operations on a 1 in 4 chance that is not planning, last turn those same German night fighters destroyed a British night raid as they most certainly would have done with this British night raid if they had scrambled.

Paris is still the base of some 40 bf109F's and other German fighters none of those planes took to the air even though they are at max readiness and adjacent to the target hex or 1 to 10. So again another 1 in 4 event.

So your planning hinged on rolling two 1 in 4 dice and getting snake eyes, you will have to let me have the secret of how that works.

These turns are a month long I remember at the time of the discussion on the interception rules in relation to this MOD Vic agreed that with the ground scale of this MOD that the interception rules that apply to the Vanilla game were not appropriate for a MOD of this scale. I agree with Vic.

As to how this game is going I would not speculate on a winner or loser.

Well, my planning actually hinged on an attempt to cripple your airfield before I made the daylight raid. Once it worked, I launched the follow up attack. It was, true, a 25% chance, but once it worked, the daylight raid was launched. A 25% chance is ok if you don´t need to take more risks. It was a win win situation. Actually, I was also considering the possibility your fighters could intercept even with decreased readiness and I could achieve something like 1:2 in the air exchange. I was simply unable to simulate this event. I don´t think the fail of night fighters to intercept is a comical event. Even with radar equipped fighters, interception went wrong many times. What you could argue, and maybe it´s more important than simple interception chances is that a relatively small raid (110 night bombers) was able to cause such a massive damage to your bases. Maybe we should change hitpoints for bases, or maybe, we should create different types of bases.

I think this issue has been with us for a long time.

Fairly early on I learned that it was better to concentrate airpower in the biggest strike possible. Some may remember my big strikes with RAF stacks in the Low Countries and north Germany. They smashed everything and rarely took losses. I think the model would work, and was designed for, more smaller attacks.

I have no problem with adding 100%. However pilot fatigue, and aircraft maintenance, could be a factor at 100%. Three medium raids followed by a big one could find fatigued defenders are all that remains.

The air model in this game is pretty simple. Making it more complex with one month turns is fraught with danger. None of us want to give up the targeting of raids the attacker performs, but it does not well reflect the activity of air force units in a month. An abstract model on a game of this scale would make more sense, but that loses so much flavor.

Does anyone know what happens to 12 Bf-109F and 8 He-111H attacking an infantry stack in a town with the 100% option and 100s of Yak-9D nearby? The AI will be in charge of defending and may make a very different decision than the human commander would wish. This is a strategic game, one of the best in my opinion, but the air model remains simple. Having played games where player input drove development I know that can take you down paths you do not want to walk. I think 100% might be worth a beta test.

Chuck

And btw, I think I will agree on the suggestion that we should have a higher interception rate. But how much higher? If we go to 100/100% we will have some odd results (very long rance interceptions). Maybe we should implement weather to limit the pace of fighter operations? If we go to...say, 90/95% we will still have people complaining about how the mod is "broken". Unfortunately, there are intrinsic limitations in the ATG system. An obvious one is the impossibility to set a value of interception chance based on radar stations.

I am it seems unable to get across that these turns are a month long they are just not one sortie like the vanilla game they are multiple sorties, with only 13 turns a string of bad luck can determine victory. That is no basis to decide victory and certainly not how the 2nd World War played out control of the air was contested every month, no month past that was uncontested. The very idea of a month were German planes do not contest the skies over Europe should be considered so unlikely as to be unthinkable in any game covering the 2nd World War.

I am playing the Japanese player....not sure I'd be the right pick to play the Germans...

My intentions were to offer my aid to the British/French in return for them not going to war against me because I attacked the COMMUNISTS. At this time I am
not allied with the Germans. I wanted an alliance with the Americans which in this game probably included the Chinese since they are played by the same person
(I think). My goal was to capture the two resource centers in Eastern Russia and if possible more--all the way to Moscow. (Anti-Communists victory).

I looked at the rules and interception is not set by the mod but the game itself...if it needs changing than Vic would have to change it. The chances that an
interception will succeed is set by the mod but not the roll to try to intercept.

In one game I had a interesting result...I sent a SINGLE (SFT) to recon an area....the entire enemy air force intercepted it....wild...my follow on attack with
my entire air force versus the enemy capital had not one plane intercept the attack (except those planes in the capital hex itself). Needless to say such results
are possible when the intercept chance is random and in a game where the turns are long (more than 20 days)can affect the outcome of a war. I think it would take
some significant programming to change from random to logical interception rules.

So we are left we some choices

1-We can restart this game with 100% interception rules
2-We can continue this game while we will work in the next version of GD1938. If ernie agrees we will implement 100/100% rules. I think the 90/75 would be ok if the %interception was calculated for each unit. As it is calculated for all aircraft, I will agree with 100%/100%
3-We can continue this game without Ironduke. In this case I think the Japanese should make an alliance with Japan, since, we won´t never let the Soviets alone. The Soviets saved us for certain defeat. Again, these are strategic decisions that matter. Did the Japanese player play attention to the fact that the West only survives because the Russians entered the war on our side?

Just for clarification in the air combat system as with land and naval combat there is a random factor added to the result. this to my mind reflects the variation in outcome due to different factors luck being one of them, the random result allows for variation in result but does not prevent combat completely as the interception percentage rule does. The interception percentage being a facet of vanilla game where turn time scale and ground scale are a fraction of the GD1938 MOD.

Regards attacking when the outcome is likely to be disasterous, and relying on the interception rule to allow such a attack to succeed, I never do it I always presume interception of 100%, so if I launch a air attack it is because I believe I can win the battle.

ORIGINAL: Bombur

So we are left we some choices

1-We can restart this game with 100% interception rules
2-We can continue this game while we will work in the next version of GD1938. If ernie agrees we will implement 100/100% rules. I think the 90/75 would be ok if
the %interception was calculated for each unit. As it is calculated for all aircraft, I will agree with 100%/100%
3-We can continue this game without Ironduke. In this case I think the Japanese should make an alliance with Japan, since, we won´t never let the Soviets alone.

The Soviets saved us for certain defeat. Again, these are strategic decisions that matter. Did the Japanese player play attention to the fact that the West only
survives because the Russians entered the war on our side?

Yes I did pay attention to the West being saved by Soviets...but International Relations are not based upon who is an ally/enemy but on what is BEST for the nation
making the decision . . So the question the West should ask is that, is it better to be at peace or at war with the Japanese or even have the Japanese as an ally.

As to the three choices I am unsure....
1) The Japanese attacked the Soviets with some diplomatic views taken into consideration. Me taking over the Germans
(and I've never played a good German player) would have unknown affect on these diplomatic views.
2) I agree with Ironduke as to the affect of the interception rules.

Not sure increasing the interception percentage to 100% is a solution...does this mean the same aircraft can be used against multiple attacks? Or is there a test
that makes sure the aircraft are only used ONCE or up to their AP.

ORIGINAL: ironduke1955

Just for clarification in the air combat system as with land and naval combat there is a random factor added to the result. this to my mind reflects the variation in outcome due to different factors luck being one of them, the random result allows for variation in result but does not prevent combat completely as the interception percentage rule does. The interception percentage being a facet of vanilla game where turn time scale and ground scale are a fraction of the GD1938 MOD.

Regards attacking when the outcome is likely to be disasterous, and relying on the interception rule to allow such a attack to succeed, I never do it I always presume interception of 100%, so if I launch a air attack it is because I believe I can win the battle.

-Two things
1-I didn´t relied on the interception rule, I actually relied on the decreased readiness of your Bf-109F´s. The interception rule was a bonus. But it wasn´t of course, against the rules. I could have lost 500 aircraft. It was a gamble. The result I expected was a good exchange rate. Even a 20 vs. 40 loss would be considered a good result to me. And if my night raid was intercepted? Not sure if I would attack. I would have checked the readiness of the aircraft in the base Iattacked. And of course, I didn´t. nothing against the rules. The rules are well known by everyone
2-Turn time scale for GD-1938 is actually equal to vanilla. Not sure on scale, because vanilla lacks a scale.

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

I wanted an alliance with the Americans which in this game probably included the Chinese since they are played by the same person
(I think).

Just wanted to point out that I am the Chinese, but I am not playing the Americans in this game. As the most junior player in experience, I will accept whatever is decided. I am just beginning to see the depth of these rules. Thought the game was good up to now, with a lot of diplomacy and strategy.

I forgot that this was the game where I raised objections to the same player playing both USA and China and Baloo7777 joined to play China.

My bad. And I thank Baloo7777 for joining. I've played Germany ONCE and lost big in 1938 to just France so I think we need someone who can play Germany better than ME.

Not sure how to resolve this so we can keep playing.

Not sure I have the time to take on Germany....I am already involved in several other games and working on my own WWII European scenario. Still working on the
weather for my game...did you know that 1939, 1940 and 1941 were the worse European winters on record for decades. Finding records about the weather in Eastern Europe
for this time period is VERY difficult and time consuming.

It was a gamble

This differs from the well planned reasoning it was a gamble based on the probability of having a free run at the air base. Worth doing if it succeeded, but its success is premised on a impossibility that the German night fighters would for a entire month remain on the ground fully fueled and undamaged, perhaps one sortie on one of those nights may have got through unchallenged, but not a entire month. This random factor is reflected in the combat results. But to allow uncontested air combat is against the logic of air combat during the period, air superiority was earned not gifted. And I will say again this is theater combat not one sortie on a large map in a custom game.

I vote for a restart with 100/100% interception chance. Same sides. Same house rules? I´m against restrictions to alliances. Is that acceptable for everyone?

1) Until a coding change resolves the issue, perhaps a house rule 'solution' to the intercept/no intercept problem would be to limit all attacks to max 100 attack points. Not stack points, attack points.

With that rule, a failure to intercept would have limited effect overall.

Plus I've always disliked the monster attacks, ex. 800 or 900 attack points of heavy tanks, or massive attacks against one hex by air units. Those kinds of attacks are exploits.

2) I don't understand the effect of a 100% intercept rule.

Fine by me if the other players agree.

2-Turn time scale for GD-1938 is actually equal to vanilla. Not sure on scale, because vanilla lacks a scale.

My bad the time scale is the same, the ground scale I believe is 10 KM per hex correct me if I am wrong that would make the Russian Front in GD 1938 very large indeed. And even the Western Front would be quite large.

It´s not, if you look at artillery range, it seems to be 10km, but then, aircraft would have operational ranges close to 100-200km, panzers would be moving at a snail speed (100km/month) and warships would be easily beaten by trirremes, as they move at a fantastic rate of 100km/month. DC uses 10km hexes, I think. There is no fixed hex size for vanilla. Bombur mod uses a fixed hax size of 50km with 15 days turns. The GD1938 uses 150km hexes (I think aircraft range must be recalculated btw, because I used 100km)