Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

Oh, shipping food absolutely makes sense.

It's mostly just a question of multiple factors, which include 'how many people do I need to feed', 'can I produce this specific product locally', 'how much product can I ship per day' and 'how much will it cost to ship what I want to ship'.

For tiny colonies mining valuable materials it makes sense to ship food. For large colonies with limited farming capacity but with easy access to another planet with enough excess food production it makes sense to ship food. For most other considerations though, at minimum the bulk of food production would have to be on the planet it's going to be eaten.

I don't agree... what about all the waste... you want to recycle it into new food. The food itself is just a vessel for injecting energy into the biological mechanism in a species body. Sun plus bio-matter is food which mean energy that get into the body.

Food production with technology that is present in DW would be such a vastly small percentage of their economy it is really not worth to make a big fuss of it. It is just an industrial product like anything else, most colonies will need to be self-sustainable in many regards. Sure, really small colonies will be less self sufficient... but once you reach a few million in population you would find enough versatility to be self sufficient in most basic industry including food production no matter what planet they live on.

Even small mining stations have to recycle their waste and would probably make food of their own as a bi product of that, they would have enough energy to do so.

Many modern countries GDP from agriculture are so vastly small that it nearly is inconsequential despite being able to produce far more than it needs. Put that into perspective of vastly more advanced technology and do the maths on that.

If food for some reason was a special resource it would be immersion breaking in my opinion as we it would feel as we were back in the middle ages. It is fine for a game like Civilization as food back then was a big limitation on population size in any particular place. Food have never really been a factor for population growth, mainly on the maximum size of populations. This is usually why you historically had large scale migration of entire population in history as growth generally are decoupled from food production.

I think there would be many more interesting more realistic resources or goods you could introduce to have similar effect as food. I also would not like if we in some respect would control these resources or the production of them, this is not what the game is about. But having unique resources that only populated planets produce could be a nice idea for an expansion.

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
I don't agree... what about all the waste... you want to recycle it into new food. The food itself is just a vessel for injecting energy into the biological mechanism in a species body. Sun plus bio-matter is food which mean energy that get into the body.

That's very much a question of how much it costs to recycle. If importing is cheaper than recycling you do not recycle.

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
Food production with technology that is present in DW would be such a vastly small percentage of their economy it is really not worth to make a big fuss of it. It is just an industrial product like anything else, most colonies will need to be self-sustainable in many regards. Sure, really small colonies will be less self sufficient... but once you reach a few million in population you would find enough versatility to be self sufficient in most basic industry including food production no matter what planet they live on.

Ehm, you are missing a tiny but critical part of why food is such an important resource.

No food, no economy. Because everybody will be dead of starvation.

That said, yes, at the scale this game is operating the local population would at minimum have some level of self sufficiency in all areas of the economy, and food production among that.

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
Even small mining stations have to recycle their waste and would probably make food of their own as a bi product of that, they would have enough energy to do so.

But would they want to deal with the hasle and infrastructure that are necessary for that? A small mining station in a well settled system is going to have the option of regular shipping for supply, replenishment and removal of its products, so there is less need for the station to be capable of supplementing its own resources. It'd be nice if you could grow your own tomatoes for making pasta bolognese, but why bother when you can just send a grocery list to corporate for the weekly supply run?

A mining station out in the middle of nowhere would need to be far more self sufficient because it can't call for help as easily and may not have regular shipping traffic to support itself.

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
Many modern countries GDP from agriculture are so vastly small that it nearly is inconsequential despite being able to produce far more than it needs. Put that into perspective of vastly more advanced technology and do the maths on that.

While the monetary value of food production is low, loss of that sector of the economy, even just a few percent, can have major effects on the rest of the economy. And you are neglecting the other uses of agriculture. While humanity is nowhere near as dependent on agriculture for a large number of items as it was historically, there are plenty of agriculturally sourced raw materials used across the economy for various purposes.

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
If food for some reason was a special resource it would be immersion breaking in my opinion as we it would feel as we were back in the middle ages. It is fine for a game like Civilization as food back then was a big limitation on population size in any particular place. Food have never really been a factor for population growth, mainly on the maximum size of populations. This is usually why you historically had large scale migration of entire population in history as growth generally are decoupled from food production.

I think there would be many more interesting more realistic resources or goods you could introduce to have similar effect as food. I also would not like if we in some respect would control these resources or the production of them, this is not what the game is about. But having unique resources that only populated planets produce could be a nice idea for an expansion.

Food is still a key limiting factor on population size.

That said, yes, I don't disagree that food as a resource should probably be a luxury product, with the presumption that planets produce enough food to sustain themselves and that the food that gets shipped is really stuff like high end ingredients that are either impossible to cultivate elsewhere or otherwise under some kind of protection scheme like the European Union's Protected Designation of Origin.

The food production is already include in the DWU 1, it's simply the quality of the planet. It change significantly the population maximal.
A low quality planet but with critical ressources will be a great place to make a mine station.
A low quality planet but with ruins will be interesting to colonize, anyway. Or make a resort station.
A low quality planet but located to strategic place will be colonized for train troops or occupied with a star base.

Shipping raw food is ineffective, but shipping rare ingredients is, finally it comme back to the economical system of DWU 1.

PS: If you quote me, can you quote in least my entire argument/idea? My previous message was totally removed from its context.

ORIGINAL: Hazard151
That said, yes, I don't disagree that food as a resource should probably be a luxury product, with the presumption that planets produce enough food to sustain themselves and that the food that gets shipped is really stuff like high end ingredients that are either impossible to cultivate elsewhere or otherwise under some kind of protection scheme like the European Union's Protected Designation of Origin.

You would likely bring the necessary infrastructure and base raw material to start all the necessary industry on any colony, including food production. Waste are then reinvested into the industry be it bio matter or other minerals.

If the infrastructure are severely disrupted people will die for many different reasons and starvation is likely one of them. The key here is destruction of the infrastructure that lead to breakdown on the distribution and/or production of goods and services. This is basically what happens during a conflict.

Food is not the only limiting factor on population size in a modern society, it is only one of many factors. While food is a basic necessity to live there are many other things needed to be there in a modern society or you end up with something completely useless from DW point of view.

This is why I really think it is pointless to talk about food being that special... it is part of the infrastructure of every colony in the same way that basic industry, medicine and other services are. This is why biomatter should at most be like a luxury resource that increase the development of colonies... unless the population are machines or silicon based.

DW1 did diplo well. Better than most.

The best part of was being able to attack other nations without committing to war, amazing!

I'd really like to see deeper diplomacy choice.

- Border checks where you slow trade to choke another nation (similar to below, but not military)
- Border friction (not full wars), where you'd have to maintain security from encroachments
- Cease fires with guarantees (so there's punishment for double crossing)
- Public apologies (to calm down hostilities) where perhaps you take a pop happiness hit (or other reaction based on gov type)
- Specific trade related situations, such as tariffs and bribes (capitulation/foot on neck)
- Specific espionage jobs based on relation status
- Federations, maybe
- Bribes "join my war" or help me with espionage, but these can back fire and you can get double-crossed

Etc, etc.

ORIGINAL: Bleek

DW1 did diplo well. Better than most.

The best part of was being able to attack other nations without committing to war, amazing!

Yes, I really hope DW2 keeps this! Plenty of times one of my escorts has seen a neighbouring colony ship approaching one of my future colony sites. A few shots at it to drive it away, and the problem is solved with just some ruffled diplomat feathers.

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

ORIGINAL: Bleek

DW1 did diplo well. Better than most.

The best part of was being able to attack other nations without committing to war, amazing!

Yes, I really hope DW2 keeps this! Plenty of times one of my escorts has seen a neighbouring colony ship approaching one of my future colony sites. A few shots at it to drive it away, and the problem is solved with just some ruffled diplomat feathers.

It's such a cool approach because it reflects reality.

I really hate that most 4X require you to commit to war, when a little skirmish/altercation is all that was required.

ORIGINAL: Cauldyth

ORIGINAL: Bleek

DW1 did diplo well. Better than most.

The best part of was being able to attack other nations without committing to war, amazing!

Yes, I really hope DW2 keeps this! Plenty of times one of my escorts has seen a neighbouring colony ship approaching one of my future colony sites. A few shots at it to drive it away, and the problem is solved with just some ruffled diplomat feathers.

Your reputation takes a hit, though. A few of these attacks or sly colony invasions and you're Big Bad Galactic Wolf. Wonder if it'll be the same in DW2.

That's interesting to see that playable Pirates!! are not a big feature for many. I personally pushed for more detailed ground assaults, this is seldom tackled properly (meaning never) in Sci-fi 4X.

Best one so far, for the record was Emperor of the Fading Suns, where each planet was a full map, but the game itself was at most a beta, given how riddled with bugs and incomplete features it was.

ORIGINAL: Pocus

That's interesting to see that playable Pirates!! are not a big feature for many. I personally pushed for more detailed ground assaults, this is seldom tackled properly (meaning never) in Sci-fi 4X.

Best one so far, for the record was Emperor of the Fading Suns, where each planet was a full map, but the game itself was at most a beta, given how riddled with bugs and incomplete features it was.

ShadowEmpire says hello.It has an A.I too unlike Suns.

Shadow Empire is focused on 1 planet. Emperor of the Fading Suns covered multiple star systems at the same time.

And to be honest, I get why most space 4x games abstract planetary warfare. It's just not the focus of the game compared to the space combat and empire control mechanics.

About pirates I would prefer if this expansion includes in the gameplay of empires and not separating pirates and empires gameplay.

All options of piracy could be done with empires, in fact. I don't know why an empire couldn't act like a pirate, that is to say:
-racketeering other empire for credits or ore if we have the military power necessary.
-Propose a protection contract
-Can accept to destroy an enemy base for a contract
-Can accept to capture a ship for a contract
-Can accept to steal a technology again with a contract
-Propose service of smugglers
-Attack and steal freighter shipment
-Capture a VIP for a ransom
-Make a criminal network on another empire world

I think it would be better if instead of an empire and pirate gameplay choice, that we have an option for choosing our starting archetype, depending the empire we made, example:
-Empire, start with a homeworld, some ships and some mine like the normal start
-Old Empire, start with a homeworld, fewer ships and mine but have in the galaxy map some ship and base they can reactivate by passing close to them
-Exiled, start with three colony ships and a small fleet, not start with a homeworld.
-Travelers, no homeworld they start with a bigger fleet, with passenger fleet that work like a colony, and constructor ship that can build other ships. They get less buff from the colony and bases.
-Destructors, they start with a homeworld but their colonies lose quality at measure they stay on them, they can build more quickly military and invading force. They earn credits at each invasion/colonization and not sufferings to a lack of private sector.
-Extra-dimensionnal, they have a homeworld but in a pocket universe with weak resources, they can pass to the normal space anytime (the pocket universe position of the ship is relative to the normal universe) , like if they would use an hyperdrive.
-Base occupier, no homeworld, but more mine and star base, that can be used as a colony
-Hidden base, no homeworld, but a base hidden in interstellar space.
-One world, a great homeworld from where they get all their power, they can't colonize other world, only invade them and these colonies don't give a lot to this archetype of empire.

Edit: I add a last

202 votes! Thanks for voting guys.

Orbiting planets! Orbiting planets! Orbiting pla... [:D]

So I'm not alone in thinking playing pirates in DW1 was just to inferior than playing majors to bother with.

Devs take note.

I tried pirate play and it was actually pretty fun but kinda limited in the end game. I would like to see it return in the form of an expansion later on with expanded content and finer control over the faction you infiltrated.

Really ...
orbiting planets, which offers nothing to gameplay is the most wanted ? LOL
... you will hate it, when you have to click on them to deliver resources or land ships etc. and it will slow game , when we hit mid and endgame near to a slide show

BUT to anything else YEAH GIVE US ALL ALL ALL ALL

special MP, even mini MP for 2-4 players would be enough ...
but have they already confirmed, that the game engine could be expanded for MP, because if you haven't planned for this feature when you have built the gameengine, it will never happen !
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ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

ShadowEmpire says hello.It has an A.I too unlike Suns.

when did they include an AI , which didn't cheat like hell and used different rules, than the human player ?
Worthless game in SP and MP is also a joke ...

ORIGINAL: FlashXAron_slith


special MP, even mini MP for 2-4 players would be enough ...
but have they already confirmed, that the game engine could be expanded for MP, because if you haven't planned for this feature when you have built the gameengine, it will never happen !

Don't hold your breath for any form of mp simply due to the massive bandwidth it would take to sync up the players world sim. Remember each player would have to be synced up with every ship in a game including the civilian sector. Not sure if standard residential internet has enough upload bandwidth for something like that. Not saying it can't be done but the effort might be beyond the scope of a two man team.

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

ORIGINAL: FlashXAron_slith


special MP, even mini MP for 2-4 players would be enough ...
but have they already confirmed, that the game engine could be expanded for MP, because if you haven't planned for this feature when you have built the gameengine, it will never happen !

Don't hold your breath for any form of mp simply due to the massive bandwidth it would take to sync up the players world sim. Remember each player would have to be synced up with every ship in a game including the civilian sector. Not sure if standard residential internet has enough upload bandwidth for something like that. Not saying it can't be done but the effort might be beyond the scope of a two man team.

To avoid having to send and process ~60 full savegames per second, usually a form of Determistic Lockstep is used.
But the choice to support something like that is a massive productivity divisor. So you only do it if you really think it is worth the effort. Retrofitting MP is basically impossible, unless it was planned for at the start.