Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I don't think it will change much. This won't affect the Soviets at all, of course, because they don't ungarrison their speed bumps.

Imo, it's not the answer I'm looking for here. Soviets are still going to get steamrolled.

It will help the Russians in a few ways:
1. The Germans won't have as many Armour ready for the beginning of the Battle of France.
2. The French garrisoned units (which now will be most of my French units) will gain +2 Anti-tank.
3. The combined effect of 1 and 2 will be more German casualties attacking France, which means less strength for Russia.
4. The Germans will have less Armour ready for the beginning of Barbarossa. Even just 1 or 2 could make a difference.
5. The Russian garrison units (which in my case will be some 60 large corps) will gain +2 anti-tank, which means more German Casualties.

By themselves each of these is only a minor help to the Russians. But perhaps combined they will be enough to make a difference. I agree that it was not the answer I was looking for either, but it might be enough.

This sums it up.

From my decades, and I can't believe I can say this, of playing World in Flames MORE stuff on the map leads to 2 things. First, a steam roll effect because it is harder to balance the sides. Second, a static effect where the fronts are slow and boring because everyone is triple stacked and deep.

This is my opinion only from observation is that the ideal situation is where all sides feel like they never have enough. That forces players to put their effort into one scenario until very late in the war where the Allies should have a large force advantage.

The goal is, if things turn out balanced, that the Germans do have to face a decision in 1942 of where to attack assuming a 1941 invasion. Where the Soviets don't have the forces to attack in 1942 themselves but enough to defend well 2 of the 3 front lines. Where the Western Allies can't willy nilly do what they want in 1942. Where balanced set of forces are important.

I added some of the BoA stuff because I noticed, as did Hadros, a huge hole in the BoA that was easily exploitable by the Germans. Also it wasn't even close to cost effective to build air with ASW components. Now they add a permanent value to the situation in which the cost returns over time in direct PP impact on the Germans and a determine of PP loss for the UK.

Now I have to play Hadros WPP to balance that.

Incredibly though a mountain of games I have played I still enjoy playing my creation. I figure I'd be burned out by now.

My initial assessment was not favorable but I have changed my mind here. The +2 AT effect is very noticeable although I don't understand exactly what it is doing. Is that really just +2 to guns? It seems like it is doing more than that.

I consider this a bigger change than eliminating the garrison PP exploit, as a matter of fact.

It seems like it is doing more than that.

On top of been good killing machines in defense, each gun also reduce a little the chances that one retreats IIRC. Hence I assume the AT name is a reference (or a wink) to the fact that tank factors do the opposite?

Although not retreating is in some cases not necessarily good... Too many sub-variables to be sure until testing of overall effects (and by quite a few games).

New Soviet defense in testing. All mech corps disbanded, all pre-named rifle corps built, all <30% xp rifle corps garrisoned.

all pre-named rifle corps built

I am just curious, but why not more? Especially if disbanding the mechs?

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

all pre-named rifle corps built

I am just curious, but why not more? Especially if disbanding the mechs?

You could go all in on rifle corps. But I started building armor instead.

ORIGINAL: sveint

New Soviet defense in testing. All mech corps disbanded, all pre-named rifle corps built, all <30% xp rifle corps garrisoned.

I call this the Hedgehog Defence, but I have heard other names used. I would be interested to know if it works for you.

Harder to pull off hedgehogs because in this game hexes that are taken from the enemy become immune to zoc effects. You can easily manipulate this to produce retreat results and corridors to advance. But I kind of like the idea of trashing all the mech. They are just not very cost effective now. You may as well forget about them until the end of 1942 when they grow up.

I'd rather have 10 or so armor and a bunch of infantry than all this garbage mech. With infantry now getting a garrison bonus, they are clearly superior in defense now than the early mech.

Another thing I am seriously considering now with the Sovs: building some merchants before the war starts. That will help ease the BoA for the British.

You could go all in on rifle corps. But I started building armor instead.

Thanks!

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Harder to pull off hedgehogs because in this game hexes that are taken from the enemy become immune to zoc effects. You can easily manipulate this to produce retreat results and corridors to advance. But I kind of like the idea of trashing all the mech. They are just not very cost effective now. You may as well forget about them until the end of 1942 when they grow up.

Would be an interesting change the game to have it be that only the first unit entering a battle hex gets the immune to ZOC effects.

Sadly that is a game engine thing.

But if you think about it, it makes more sense. The enemy was guarding a hex...so other units did not need to extend their support there.
Once the hex falls the enemy moves in...that alerts the adjacent units that defenses have been breached and they change their defenses and exert their ZOC there.



But I look forward to attacking the USSR now to see what can be done.
Hopefully enough to make Russia fun again...

Though in my current game I have the german army in garrison mode. NOW I did get the full PP return for them switching...but now it costs slightly more to convert back...so will lose out a bit in the end.
Not to harsh overall. Don't think that will really overly affect the Germans.

Wow - the impact of +2 guns is huge. One single Panzer Corps attacking an Infantry Rifle Corps (20% experience) at 4:1. The Infantry Rifle Corps holds.

Well, not a bad thing, in my second turn of Barbarossa end of May, 1941 as Russian, I have identified 13 Panzer corps and 3 Mechanized corps attacking me... They are some building masters here. They were, I hope.

Was the Infantry Rifle Corps in garrison mode?

Ron

Yes for having +2 guns

Counter-point, two panzers corps surrendered/overrun.

After extensive testing I can report that the Sovs can definitely hold their ground better with garrisons. The lowly reserves are actually useful now, too.

Just garrison everything. It really slows things down for the Germans. Not so much in terms of losses, but the hit on their readiness is very noticeable. By the time they get to Leningrad and Moscow they run out of gas and will now tend to come up short. Trucks will only mitigate this to a limited extent. You can burn a truck on every mobile corps a turn and they are still going to be struggling and need a pause. It's possible to get something resembling a historical result now, the Soviets don't just get overrun.

You do have to build a ton of rifle corps, though. I'm trashing all the mech now. ALL of them. They're junk. All you need is infantry and maybe 8-10 armor and you are good to go. Don't even bother with mech until the end of 42. They are totally not a cost effective unit until then.

I'm still seeing the Soviets having real problems getting their experience up, though. You aren't going to cap this before the end of 1942, if that, and you probably aren't getting over 40% before 1942. It's just super slow grinding experience for the Soviets now.

I did this with no less than 15 mobile corps for the Axis, btw. (12 German and 3 Italian.) Gave them a massive invasion force. That was enough to get them to a historical stop line in 41 but there is none of this stuff about curbstomping the Soviets and grabbing Moscow easy anymore. So you can face even the best Axis war machine with some confidence now. You will get past 41, at any rate.

I'm still seeing the Soviets having real problems getting their experience up, though. You aren't going to cap this before the end of 1942, if that, and you probably aren't getting over 40% before 1942. It's just super slow grinding experience for the Soviets now.

From what I noticed in all my games is that it can vary by quite a lot. I have seen 50% in early 1943 but also in late 1941. Although both 41 and 43 are rare. Usually it seems to fall in 1942, first half. But still very random. In my actual game with Sveint, they reached 50% late... September 41 (at war since early March). A lot of battles however...

Talking land national XP of course not particular units which vary quite a lot and not air national XP which usually goes up only by 1 to 3 in the first six months! And 3 is actually lucky!

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

After extensive testing I can report that the Sovs can definitely hold their ground better with garrisons. The lowly reserves are actually useful now, too.

...

I'm still seeing the Soviets having real problems getting their experience up, though. You aren't going to cap this before the end of 1942, if that, and you probably aren't getting over 40% before 1942. It's just super slow grinding experience for the Soviets now.

Great Flaviusx, if you are happy, I am happy. Regarding experience, it is super slow but is it really a problem now?

The only way I can see maybe accelerating this is to launch a lot of low odds and suicidal attacks, preferably during the first winter. It might just be worth it. But it's going to be sheer luck how this ends up, and you could wind up throwing away a lot of production for little result.

Since virtually all your infantry is going to be garrisoned now, these attacks just got harder. The Soviet winter counteroffensive in this game is mostly a myth to begin with. It got even more so with this patch.

It sure would be nice if those Siberians came in with winterization built in, as everyone has been asking for since forever. It's just not cost effective to save up the specializations for this single purpose. I will always put on the elite specialization on an armor unit as those become available. It is practically the only way the Sovs can get a 10 point unit in the early days. You are going to be even more reliant on them than before for whatever counteroffensive punch you've got. Which is why you do need to build a few of them as a stiffener. (The mech, as I said, should be entirely ignored until the end of 42. They are not cost effective in defense compared to even a lowly reserve rifle army, and don't have the same punch as the armor. They are very expensive rifle armies for all practical purposes until their bonuses kick in and should be entirely scrapped early on.)