Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
First your aircgroups arrive on map with aircraft and pilots trained to the level ot the time period so Japanese aircraft production is for replacements not expanding the size of the airforce.

This quote confused me. My understanding was that reinforcements were outfitted via the pool. No aircraft in pool = delayed airgroup. Is that wrong?

[Oznoyng]

Oh, and another question: What affect do the squadrons leader and the other pilots in the airgoup have upon the training advancement of the trainee pilots?

[Mr.Frag]

My understanding was that reinforcements were outfitted via the pool. No aircraft in pool = delayed airgroup. Is that wrong?

NO

Replacement planes come from the pool.

Replacement pilots come from the pool.

Reinforcement planes come from the pool BUT enter the game with free pilots based on that country's current skill by year.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

My understanding was that reinforcements were outfitted via the pool. No aircraft in pool = delayed airgroup. Is that wrong?

NO

Replacement planes come from the pool.

Replacement pilots come from the pool.

Reinforcement planes come from the pool BUT enter the game with free pilots based on that country's current skill by year.

That is what I said. I was not asking about pilots, but the effect of not having sufficient numbers of the aircraft available on the availability of the group. My understanding is that I need to produce enough aircraft for oops/combat losses *and* to equip reinforcement airgroups. Your quote suggests that you get the aircraft free and I simply wanted clarification.

Reinforcement airgroups come with pilots of appropriate skill levels for the year. What about previously disbanded groups? Do they enter the game with "free" pilots based upon skill by year, or are they taken from the pool/untrained?

[Mr.Frag]

What about previously disbanded groups?

Disbanded and Withdrawn groups are treated as any other group arriving. They leave their pilots and aircraft in the other group on the way out.

This is Mogami's little training school tactic ... disband your air group to get the pilots moved into a different group then when they come back again, train train train ... rinse and repeat as required. As long as you have aircraft, you will be producing semi-skilled pilots. Do not allow ANY in game groups to pull from the pool unless the pool can afford to provide pilots. A disbanded airgroup coming back into play early in the game will have higher skills then a pilot pulled from a very empty pool.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

What about previously disbanded groups?

Disbanded and Withdrawn groups are treated as any other group arriving. They leave their pilots and aircraft in the other group on the way out.

This is Mogami's little training school tactic ... disband your air group to get the pilots moved into a different group then when they come back again, train train train ... rinse and repeat as required. As long as you have aircraft, you will be producing semi-skilled pilots. Do not allow ANY in game groups to pull from the pool unless the pool can afford to provide pilots. A disbanded airgroup coming back into play early in the game will have higher skills then a pilot pulled from a very empty pool.

Ah... I had assumed that pilots in the case of previously disbanded airgroups would enter the game drawing from the pool levels. The lack of distinction between reinforcements and withdrawn/disbanded changes the analysis a *wee* bit.

[esteban]

I agree with Mogami's logic in doing his bit with the disbanded air units, but it is "gamey". Reinforcements should enter the game as they did in UV, where they had a certain number of pilots assigned to the group when it arrived, and the rest needed to taken out of the replacement pool.

So if you disband a group, when it comes back it will have no pilots, because all the others have been sent to other units. So it will have to draw on the replacement pool to get any pilots at all.

[Mr.Frag]

We tossed this one around a million times, but we were far too late in the dev cycle to do any major changes here.

I keep pushing for a Pilot School just like the other factories that feeds the game new pilots. Give it a year of further arm twisting by us on poor Joel [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, It is not gamey and I can prove it. Gamey implies exploit. If however something is working as designed then it is not an exploit and not gamey.

When I explained the system in the test forum I required several changes to make it work. Among these was the need for disbanded groups to return to play. (It had been changed to disbanding a group removed it from the game forever)

They allowed the player a choice instead. So when you disband a group that you intend on using for training you say "yes" when asked if you want it to return. I think this shows the system has the designers seal of approval.

Now these groups when they return will draw from the pool but since the Japanese pools will be empty they will draw "UNTRAINED" pilots. All I am doing is placing all the untrained pilots into the same group. (rather then allowing them to go piecemeal into front line groups) Then I train them. The level of training they have when the are sent to combat groups is hence up to me. I think the system in leiu of any other is easy to understand, practical, and realistic. (a training group in Japan is in a sense a Japanese training school)

[Caltone]

I don't think it's gamey at all Mogami but I guess I'm having a hard time getting my hands around it.

You mentioned disbanding the IJN groups in the Home Islands. Lets choose a 27 plane Betty group for example.

1. Divide the group
2. Disband one of the groups, this throws the pilots into the other half of the original group
3. Choose yes to reform the disbanded group

At this point I think we have a 14 plane Betty group with 27 pilots and an incoming 13 plane Betty group with 0 pilots.

4. In 60 days the disbanded group reappears with raw pilots which you train.
5. Eventually you have the 14 plane group with 27 good pilots and the 13 plane group with average pilots.

I take it you will move these groups into the front lines? I'm not seeing a huge advantage here. You still have 27 planes only half of them are flown by average pilots.

What about the starting front line units? Eventually they will draw the pool down and need more pilots. Won't they have to grab the raw pilots at some point? If you have saved your pilot pool, won't the incoming 13 plane group from above draw from the good pilots?

Perhaps I'm missing a way to assign which pilots go to which groups?

Sorry for my confusion. Wife swears I'm shell shocked from 20 years of playing marine [:D]

[DrewMatrix]

Mogami is talking about whole units, not divided units, right?

I have 3rd FS which I intend to use (has P40Es) and I have the 4th FS which I do _not_ really intend to use in combat. So I disband the 4th in the hex which contains the 3rd FS. The partially trained pilots go into the 3rd (which needs pilots, having been in combat) and the 4th vanishes for 60 days. when the 4th returns, it has pilots from the pool (low experience). I train them up a bit, then disband again sending them (now with a bit more experience) to the 3rd or whatever other real, combat unit needs pilots.

It doesn't seem wrong at all. Basically one is using the 4th FS as a school unit.

My only question (not trying it until the patch is out, not that I am anxious for the patch) is won't the Allies fill out the 4th FS (the school unit) to 48 or 72 pilots? But I guess I will find some way to burn up all those partially trained pilots <G>

[Caltone]

I think he mentioned either (divided group or whole group)

I think I follow a little better. So now we have a moderately trained group of 27 pilots that we wish to use for front line service. We bring in a front line group that needs pilots and disband the "training school" group? I was thinking along your lines Beezle, but I guess it's OK to have a group with way more pilots than it needs as attrition will whittle them down.

Maybe I'm just losing pilots too fast, I think I would have a need for pilots before I could train them back up. This has me drawing raw recruits into decent squadrons.

[DrewMatrix]

Maybe I'm just losing pilots too fast

So we can assume you are playing PBEM against Mogami, then?

[mogami]

Hi, Maybe I should start from the very beginning here.

This program is mainly for the Japanese Naval Airforce starting pilot pool 100 with 10 added per month. (120 new trained pilots per year)
The Allies do not have pool problems but I do early in the war disband some of the group but this is strictly to get a few groups ready for combat ASAP. I don't worry about training Allied pilots. I don't really sweat training Japanese Army Pilots at start but I know there will come a time when that pool is drained so I go ahead and set up the program.

The idea is not to over load groups it is to keep them at full strength (remember you don't want to overload carrier groups because a carrier with more then an extra 10% aircraft on board cannot fly ops. (you can overload CVE that are being used as ferry because your not flying anyway and you load and unload the aircraft in port)

Normal IJN Daitai can contain 27 aircraft. When you divide a Daitai you get 3x9 AC sub groups. Now all you need is a combat group that has lost 9 aircraft/pilots You merge (disband) the subgroup into the combat group.. Don't worry if the group has a few excess pilots/aircraft Excess aircraft will go into reseve in a day or two and having extra pilots will allow a few of them to rest every day even if all the ready aircraft fly a mission.

Normally if you have a group in combat and it loses a pilot you could just select "recieve replacements" and a pilot from the pool would be issued. This is fine as long as the pool contains trained pilots but if it is empty then you would be sending an untrained pilot to a combat group. If that does not bother you then you can save time and stop reading and move to another thread. On the other hand if you want trained pilots only engaging in combat then you have 2 choices.

Choice 1 Rotate Combat Groups. Here you decide how long a group will remai in combat without replacements. Daitai enter combat with 27 pilots and aircraft. Do you let them fight down to 20? 13? 5? whatever you decide there will come a time when the group is lost it's combat effectivness. You then move it to a secure base with 20k+ supply and select "recieve replacements" In a few days you will have a full group but the missing part will have been filled with untrained pilots so the group will need to spend a period of time training. Once it reaches the level of training you will accept you return the entire group to comabt and start all over.

Choice 2 Send trained replacements from your on map training program. When a group requires new pilots you send one of your sub units down and disband it into the group. The replacements are all trained. The group experiance remains high and it can stay in combat.


The returning groups will draw from the pool. Early on this means your IJA repalcement groups should have trained or mostly trained pilots. (So you can use them right away) But remember the system is meant for when you have depleted you pools. The IJN pool should just about be empty by the time your first disbanded groups return to map. (How long does it take for the carrier groups and Betty/Nell groups to lose 100 pilots?)

These groups will draw the untrained pilots and you begin training them. Hopefully by the time you use all the groups assigned as replacements you will have trained a few returning ones. You will never send any untrained pilot into a combat group.

The overall effect of the system is it delays the decline of the quality of IJN combat groups.

Non system AIrgroups path to decline
Daitai begins with 27 pilots exp 80+ As it suffers loss pilots replacements are 70 while in pool after pool depleted group begins to replace loss with untrained the more untrained drawn the lower the rating.
Eventully group still has 27 pilots but rating are spread from 80 to below 20. In combat it suffers increased loss causing more rapid use of untrained pilots causing ratings to decrease further. 10 pilots per month arrive in pool trained.

System path
Daitai begins with 27 pilots exp 80+ when Approx 9 have been lost 9 pilots exp 80 + arrive restoring group. Late in war pilot replacement quality will have declined to where group is getting replacement pilots in the 50's but IJN airgroups have retained their starting quality longer then in actual war. It's up to the Japanese player to take advantage of this extension to the IJN offensive capabilty.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

My understanding was that reinforcements were outfitted via the pool. No aircraft in pool = delayed airgroup. Is that wrong?

NO

Replacement planes come from the pool.

Replacement pilots come from the pool.

Reinforcement planes come from the pool BUT enter the game with free pilots based on that country's current skill by year.

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Now these groups when they return will draw from the pool but since the Japanese pools will be empty they will draw "UNTRAINED" pilots. All I am doing is placing all the untrained pilots into the same group. (rather then allowing them to go piecemeal into front line groups) Then I train them. The level of training they have when the are sent to combat groups is hence up to me. I think the system in leiu of any other is easy to understand, practical, and realistic. (a training group in Japan is in a sense a Japanese training school)

Sigh. Which of you is right? Let me put this in very concrete terms:

In early '42, I have a IJN squadron of 27 A6M2. I split it and send each part to a different base, where I disband said squadron into other squadrons. 60 days later, I have *zero* pilots in the IJN pilot pool. Those subgroups come back into play with 27 pilots with what skill level? Do they all get the standard skill level of 75 that is awarded to Japan in '42? Or, do they get some number based upon a random skill level?

In early '42, I get an IJN reinforcement squadron with 27 A5M4 Claudes. At the time I receive the reinforcements, My pilot pool is empty. What will be the skill level of those pilots?

Finally, what effect do the commander and other pilots in the squadron have upon the skill improvement of a squadron in training? If I have an 85 plus experience pilot for every untrained pilot in the group, does my untrained pilot increase his training level faster than if I had all untrained pilots in the squadron?

[mogami]

Hi, A returning group (one that has been disbanded) is not a reinforcement. BOth the pilots and the ac come from the pool.

A group arriving on map for the first time is a reinforcement. It draws aircraft but the pilots come free (not from pool) at the National training level for their branch of service.

Leadership effects everything. Other pilots do not however USA pilots may be withdrawn from combat after a certain number of missons. USA National training levels reflect this.
The veteran pilots are who train the 10 IJN replacements per month. (There are not very many instructors)

[Captain Cruft]

I would like to humbly suggest that the "Mogami system" be considered an essential part of any Japanese player's strategy for the Grand Campaign. I had been intending on using group rotation but I now realise that this is nothing like as efficient as the partial unit "training school".

While we're on this topic, one thing that has not been mentioned much is how exactly pilot exp ratings affect play. From my own limited playing experience I would suggest a couple of things (which may quite possibly be incorrect).

1. Experience is more important for bombers than fighters:

A bomber that does not hit anything is absolutely worthless. In particular dive and torpedo bombers seem to need very high (75+ ?) ratings to hit ships when there is lots of flak about.

2. Pilots with very low exp (less than 30?) are liable to crash when doing any sort of flying.

3. In general, you might split exp levels into 4 categories. 70+ is good, 50-70 is usable, 30-50 is OK for non-combat duty and 30- is absolutely useless [:)]

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

My understanding was that reinforcements were outfitted via the pool. No aircraft in pool = delayed airgroup. Is that wrong?



NO

Replacement planes come from the pool.

Replacement pilots come from the pool.

Reinforcement planes come from the pool BUT enter the game with free pilots based on that country's current skill by year.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Now these groups when they return will draw from the pool but since the Japanese pools will be empty they will draw "UNTRAINED" pilots. All I am doing is placing all the untrained pilots into the same group. (rather then allowing them to go piecemeal into front line groups) Then I train them. The level of training they have when the are sent to combat groups is hence up to me. I think the system in leiu of any other is easy to understand, practical, and realistic. (a training group in Japan is in a sense a Japanese training school)

Oznoyng,

They both said the same thing. They draw from the pool, but if the pool is empty, it draws untrained pilots. So pilots in the pool are trained pilots meaning they have some experiece you get 10 of these every month. If the pool is empty because you have used all the trained pilots in the pool, the game then assigns generic untrained crappy pilots to the new planes. This whole method they are talking about just makes sure that the pool of trained pilots never goes empty so you do not have untrained crappy pilots going into front line combat groups.

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

Mogami,

Are you going to teach us any allied tricks? Or are you a member and president of the Japanese Fan Boy Club. [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, OK suppose your pool is empty of trained pilots. What are you going to get instead?

Now I'm still running my Beta version where 70 is the rating assigned to atrained IJN pilot. Pilots will be 70 +-5 (from 65-75)

The highest untrained pilot will be 64 so the first untrained pilot will be 59+- 5
the next 58 and so on so when you replace an entire Daitai with untrained pilots the highest will have been 59+- 5 and the lowest 32+- 5. You can see by the time you start your 2nd Daitai the pilots you would have been sending into combat are worthless for that purpose. You should be able to train a Daitai containing nothing but pilots below 10 to around 60 in 12-18 months. I do low intensity training because I don't want to kill my cadets. That is another reason for starting the program right on turn 1.