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Originally posted by General Mayhem:



And your point is? Are you saying
that because 2/3 of troops were Italians(apparently litte use) it dimishes somehow
German achievement on there? Shouldn't
it be other way around?

When El Alamein came, I understood Germans
had about 30-40 tanks against 600 Allied,
and as bad relation by numbers in other matters too. And very little fuel.

Still it took some time Monty to get them
routed.

No Mayhem she is saying she is amused that 'German Fan' wants Afrika Korpse to be elite, but never buys any Italians. They were the Bulk of that Army. Kind of hypocritical to her and others point of view.

sven

My Point was that some folks only use history when it suits them ... and that every soldier on every battle field deserves your respect.. regardless of nationality and elite is more than just a hat style ..
Either they were darn brave citizens, operateing at an expedient level of training and risking their life wiht what little a nation had to train with .. or they deliberately voulnteered for an Elite unit and met that standard ..
the willingness to accept that addition challenge, and be held to that higher standard , peace time and war... is what matters above all else
.... willing to be that good when nobody cares

[ June 22, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

Originally posted by sven:



No Mayhem she is saying she is amused that 'German Fan' wants Afrika Korpse to be elite, but never buys any Italians. They were the Bulk of that Army. Kind of hypocritical to her and others point of view.

sven

I don't see how so. Germans were there
after all because Italians couldn't
fare there. And Germans made the diffrence.

I fail to see why German part of army could
have not been elite. If not for any other
reason, because they fough well and quite long and didn't fall to as desperate fighting doing atrocities like many other German 'elite' units, like SS.

btw. Italian soldiers were not so bad
as though. They were by German opinions apparently invidually pretty good, but had
bad leadership and inadequete equipment.

Originally posted by Randy:
Figmo, about the Marines at Chosin-"Retreat
hell, we're just attacking in a different direction!!" UURRAAHH
Semper Fi
Randy

My error!! I had not thought of that!!

Figmo

Originally posted by General Mayhem:



I don't see how so. Germans were there
after all because Italians couldn't
fare there. And Germans made the diffrence.

I fail to see why German part of army could
have not been elite. If not for any other
reason, because they fough well and quite long and didn't fall to as desperate fighting doing atrocities like many other German 'elite' units, like SS.

btw. Italian soldiers were not so bad
as though. They were by German opinions apparently invidually pretty good, but had
bad leadership and inadequete equipment.

The point is Mayhem that if Afrika Korpse is 'elite' by proxy so were the Italians. German Fan pushes for Afrika Korpse's Germans to be 'elite' but ignores the fact that 2/3 of the force were Italian. How would one differentiate between Afrika Korpse units and normal 'Wehrmacht' units?

Ammo and I are not mocking the Italians. I cannot speak for her, but it seems to me that certain posters to this board use 'history' as an arguement when it suits them and 'game balance' for other situations. I think the suggested idea of purchasing morale/exp is a good one perhaps for ca/cl.

I enjoy trying to model 'reality' in my battles. I understand why German Fan does not-I mean hey after all what fun would it be to be the losing side? It just seems to me and a few others that German Fan likes to pretend they are one thing when they are in fact lobbying for others.

In my opinion if one is attempting to recreate the Afrika Korpse then they should have 2/3 Italian-not because I think the Italians are weak but instead because that was the reality. The times I have played as Germany I have always had the discipline to not buy all the Armor Kittens(Tiger and Panther). There is nothing quite so funny as seeing a player with more Tigers in his unit in 1945 than Germany had in use in the entire Army.

Don't misunderstand:a nice thing about this game is the fact it has choices that allow you to do both. I rather enjoy making Hypotheticals as a means of relaxation. Everyone is entitled to play the way they want.

I guess I just find amusing that certain people are using historical arguements to advance unhistoric practices.

regards,(and sorry if it was a long explaination)

sven

[ June 22, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
My Point was that some folks only use history when it suits them ... and that every soldier on every battle field deserves your respect.. regardless of nationality and elite is more than just a hat style ..
Either they were darn brave citizens, operateing at an expedient level of training and risking their life wiht what little a nation had to train with .. or they deliberately voulnteered for an Elite unit and met that standard ..
the willingness to accept that addition challenge, and be held to that higher standard , peace time and war... is what matters above all else
.... willing to be that good when nobody cares

[ June 22, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

Again I don't see what volunteering had
to with Elite units. I really don't
see what pre war notions have to do with actions in battle field.

My opinion is that results should define
elite units, not if they are expected lot
and thrown to difficult places. People
learn awfully fast and do quite feats when their life depends on it. Despite were they volunteers or having a special training.

However all units can't fight so well
because they have bad leadership, bad
spirit and things in cohesion of unit
that prevent them doing their best. And
maybe misguided ideas that work against
sensible tactics.

Thus I see only as a elite such units that
have all pieces put well togerther, and it is
proven in battle too.

Otherwise I do not disagree that all that
those who went to battle would not deserve
respect. In the contrary, that's why I'm
arguing against giving units with no proven
battle experience, automatically elite status with higher moral and lot of experience in the game. Were they special
units or some force like Marines.

General Mayhem
Results should be the determining factor..
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Ok but uh Hmmm do you think the troops winning or losing should be considered elite
Units that have it all put together well should be Elite
Hmmmmm
Would that be the troops with a adequate supply line and lots of happy mail from home , good food and plenty of ammo as elite or battered hungry troops out of supply and about to surrender because they got a note from home that their house was bombed flat
Hmmm
Sounds like ya think the US should be Elite and the Germans not ..
Is that what you are saying ?

Originally posted by sven:


The point is Mayhem that if Afrika Korpse is 'elite' by proxy so were the Italians. German Fan pushes for Afrika Korpse's Germans to be 'elite' but ignores the fact that 2/3 of the force were Italian. How would one differentiate between Afrika Korpse units and normal 'Wehrmacht' units?

Ammo and I are not mocking the Italians. I cannot speak for her, but it seems to me that certain posters to this board use 'history' as an arguement when it suits them and 'game balance' for other situations. I think the suggested idea of purchasing morale/exp is a good one perhaps for ca/cl.

I enjoy trying to model 'reality' in my battles. I understand why German Fan does not-I mean hey after all what fun would it be to be the losing side? It just seems to me and a few others that German Fan likes to pretend they are one thing when they are in fact lobbying for others.

In my opinion if one is attempting to recreate the Afrika Korpse then they should have 2/3 Italian-not because I think the Italians are weak but instead because that was the reality. The times I have played as Germany I have always had the discipline to not buy all the Armor Kittens(Tiger and Panther). There is nothing quite so funny as seeing a player with more Tigers in his unit in 1945 than Germany had in use in the entire Army.

Don't misunderstand:a nice thing about this game is the fact it has choices that allow you to do both. I rather enjoy making Hypotheticals as a means of relaxation. Everyone is entitled to play the way they want.

I guess I just find amusing that certain people are using historical arguements to advance unhistoric practices.

regards,(and sorry if it was a long explaination)

sven

[ June 22, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]

First of all, I'm no way fan of German armed force. Infact I happen to think German army and it's troops are many times overvaluated.

Second I don't happen to fall to those
who want to buy best possible units like
Tigers with big numbers. I think one doesnät
needs huge numbers of Tigers, as less will
suffice as well to gifted commander and I atleast try not to get used to best possible equipment. I'm atleast perfecty happy with
Panzer IV's when I play germans. But I do
admit I prefer Sherman with 76 mm over
regular Sherman.

Third, I know Italians weren't awfully bad,
but they had inadequete eguipment and
poor leadership. Thus blunt of actions
were, to my understanding, done by Germans
who themselves had to scrap spare parts and, gasolin from battlefield as they didn't
got much of supply at any stage.


Fourth, since when elite units have been
elite units because they could be diffrentiated by shoulder patch? Good soldiers, elite such, are lead better and
don't need awfully lot of special equipment
to achieve much. I still think results
should speak for themselves. Training
is not war.

I think I might be able to make a case for Training being sufficent for creating a large number of Elite ...if performance in battle be the criteria....
The majority of the troops in Desert Storm from the US were Green as Apples in May.. a much higher proportion of the Arab Troops on both sides had more and more recent actual combat experience ...
And yes our green ( but well trained) Pilots...well... there never was much doubt how that would come out, was there ?
The U.S. has a military history that is long and for the most part proud..
I don't see how, If you even took a passing interest in the U.S. Civil war ( other countires had them too..but seldom as bloody a one) That the combat effectiveness of Green US Troops could possibly be questioned ..
It is as impressive at the least as any European country inculding Germany.
WW2 was no different ... The European Countries had from Sept 39 to May 40 to get their act together 8 months ..to get it together ..Germany and Japan planed and produced for years to get it together
In 8 months from Pearl Harbor the US had Midway and Guadacanal, we were winning in the Pacific ( tough going to be sure ) had tripled supplies and weapons to the other Allies and Had Forces in Theater in preperation for Ground Combat in the ETO , and they too were on the ground in Combat and headed to Victory 3 months Later ....
3 months after May 40 the German Army had Given Up on trying to cross a 30 mile wide Channel and had decided to sneak attack on a country they had Peace treaties with ( and the Russians were starting to stop the Germans in about 8 months ), and the US was supporting Combat Forces across both Oceans,,and while still to early to say in November 42, they did in Fact Win, (setbacks ? yeah some, but overall and in the end they were better than their adversaries ..)
Did their adversaries have supply problems? Yes, across the Med... wow we were pulling across the Atlantic. Pacific, ..you don't even want to ask who had the long supply lines ...
Yeah, did the US take it on the chin from sneak attacks ?.. yeah, but they got it together as fast as anybody else ..conducted war across 4 times the distance.. and Won with Green Troops ( but trained)
Anybody can do good at first using sneak attacks ..that doesn't prove anything

ntxt

Reading this thread is a little like seeing the movie Memento (if you don´t know it, well that will only add to YOUR confusion). It´s good entertainment, it get´s you thinking, but there´s no point to it. Except the entertainment value. And ofcourse you can get a little tip on how to run a thread over 100 posts (well, not from the movie)...
And then Sven goes and bumps it, and I have to write this stupid nonsense!
<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: pax27 ]</p>

Originally posted by pax27:
Reading this thread is a little like seeing the movie Memento (if you don´t know it, well that will only add to YOUR confusion). It´s good entertainment, it get´s you thinking, but there´s no point to it. Except the entertainment value. And ofcourse you can get a little tip on how to run a thread over 100 posts (well, not from the movie)...
And then Sven goes and bumps it, and I have to write this stupid nonsense!
<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: pax27 ]

---

Never said it was going to find the cure for any ill. I posted it initially during a lull in conversation. I miss a couple of the posters in it.

Regards,
sven

Hi Sevn Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays glad to see your smiling face again .. Peace to You and Yours

Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Hi Sevn Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays glad to see your smiling face again .. Peace to You and Yours

---

and to you Ammo I hope all is well.

My uncut response to the same question a few weeks ago:

One could argue that 'elites' are charaterized by ferocity in combat, a super gung-ho (in the aggressive meaning) attitude, and iron-tight willingness never to give ground or surrender.

The kind of stuff they make shitty B-movies starring Chuck Norris and Slyvester Stallone out of.

Of course, one could also say that such a standard is damned retarded as well as those who subscribe to it. Any unit that refuses to give ground, (withdrawal, trading space for time, etc.) suffering unnecessary casualties with no gain, when they could of inflicted far more casualties (not to mention surviving) by conducting a intelligent and organized withdrawal, is retarded and probably consists of retards as well.

(^ That, my good friends, was one big-ass run-on sentence.)

But enough of me talking about meaningless bullshit. Here is my absolute opinion.

Three basic ingredients make up what most of us consider an elite. A sense of purpose, a desire (and ability) to be elite, and hardcore training. Those three, when all present, create groups of fighters whose actions and deeds make us mere mortals drop our jaws in amazement.

A sense of purpose, or mission, is critical. You have to know exactly what the fuck you are trying to be and what you are trying to do. This allows you to tailor you training as well as be more selective in just who you let in. It is the elite group's identification within the larger military it is a part of.

The desire to be elite is equally important. Trying to force a motherfucker to be elite is like trying to stuff dry bread down someone's throat. They have to want to be "a cut above". Maybe they want are fighting for a cause. Forms of this are seen in all-volunteer special operations forces (SEALs, Special Forces, Scout Rangers, SAS, etc.) and certain fanatical groups (Hokkaido Marines of Japan, during WW2). However, even if some are draftees or unwilling, this can be maintained by booting those who don't like it back to the place they came from. Everyone has to want it, to some degree. You can't have malcontents when the shit hits the fan.

The previous two are completely fucking wasted if this one gets left out. You have the mission, you have the people, now make the people capable of doing the mission. Even if your mission is nothing more than sneaking around, spying on some enemy General getting busy with a local hooker, tough training (especially physical, unarmed combat, and marksmanship) instills a sense of confidence that is critical when you are trying to do something dangerous and stressful. The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in war. And any punk-ass who can't make the cut, gets cut. When the chips are down, you want to know the guy next to you can and will march just as hard, fight just as fiercely, and shoot just as straight as you.

Get all three, and you have an elite force.

United States Marine Corps (AKA Uncle Sam's Misguided Children).
They have a sense of purpose (911 force, amphibious assaults, fucking shit up for fun and profit), the desire and ability to be elite (USMC, where the men are manly and so are the women), and hardcore training (14 weeks of "carefully calculated hell").

Almost any Airborne force in the world. Sense of purpose (get in the enemy rear via parachute, kill people, break their stuff), desire and ability to be elite (nobody is forcing you out that door and your brain is saying 'thats not smart'), and hardcore training (light infantry tactics, small arms, and physical training encouraged).

Waffen SS. Sense of purpose (defenders of the Third Reich or some other such bullsit), desire and ability to be elite (once again, volunteers) and hardcore training (ummm wait, no). Oops, I forgot. Beyond a few early divisions, most SS units had crap for training. And everyone one of those later units sucked dick and surrendered.

Which pretty much proves my point.

Ammo!

Good to see you are still around!

Sorry about the commo link. Still up for the PBEM???

Festivis Maximus! (PC for Merry Xmas and Happy Holidays...)

Never said it was going to find the cure for any ill. I posted it initially during a lull in conversation. I miss a couple of the posters in it.

Regards,
sven

---

And here I thought I was kidding around. I checked my post and nothing in it is even remotely serious.
I´m sorry if I struck a nerve, but it´s right out silly to go and get cranky after guys like me posting things like that as answers to a thread starting out like this one.

Merry Christmas to you all, and a Happy New Year

Jeff Hi There .. hopefully in a month or two .. had one sane day in the last 3 months ... I have to sneak 10 minutes to read and post here...I'll announce in combat command when thigs get back to normal ..you are on my dance card Happy Holidays

Originally posted by pax27:

And here I thought I was kidding around. I checked my post and nothing in it is even remotely serious.
I´m sorry if I struck a nerve, but it´s right out silly to go and get cranky after guys like me posting things like that as answers to a thread starting out like this one.

Merry Christmas to you all, and a Happy New Year

---

You did not strike a nerve. I assure you that is not 'cranky' from me. I merely was pointing out that the thread was never a 'super serious' one.

regards,
sven

OK Sven, that´s cool. Everything under the sun is in tune, then. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">