Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Pry has a source that says 2nd was at Naha while every source i have says it arrived November 13th 41 in Kanazawa.

What is the source that says Naha ?

The first place I looked click_here says Kanazawa.

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

I have seen to many AARs with Chinese troops overunning Northern Indo China. We pull out the 21st division and there is nothing there.

I am contemplating adding some of the Yobi Eki regiments in Indo china as I deleted 2 fictional Mixed brigades that Matrix had in Indo China. This pretty much strips the area of troops though.

Okay, a bit more of a search. There were 7 Yobi Eki battalions in Indo China that had combat experience from 39-40 in China and 3 divisions worth of Kobi Eki (mobilization reserve) in Indo China.
2 divisions were in the north while 1 was based on Saigon.

Now, the divisions are already represented by the Vietnam militia rule but we could bring in the 2 regiments of Yobi Eki troops, 1 in Hanoi and 1 in Haiphong. About 50 exp since these are the same grade of troops in the Mixed brigades.
What are your thoughts? Then we could move 21st division to Shanghai or Tsingtao.

Mike

This was already bumping around in my head ... essentially pre-activate the "militia" ... I'd like a little more time to look into this ... but this was the only idea I had up to this point. Of course I'm sure people will complain when these troops show up in Burma or on Guadalcanal ... sure would be nice if we could create more restricted commands but I understand we cannot. But if someone pulls these units out they must have replaced them with something else. I suppose we could add them to the China command that would at least preclude putting them on boats.

Can China command units operate in Indo China?
If so that is a great idea.
And remember the units i am thinking of starting are first class reserves with combat experience not the mobilization reserves.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Regiments (adds - mostly Corps Troops):
1st Assam Rifles
25th Gurkha Rifles
1st Medium Artillery
6th Medium Artillery
8th Medium Artillery
8th Belfast Heavy AA


Engineers (adds - these were Corps Troops):
10th Engineer Battalion
12th Engineer Battalion
16th Engineer Battalion
17th Engineer Battalion
20th Engineer Battalion

As always, comments appreciated. However any complete re-work of the Indian Army will have to wait until after the mass of work around V1.5 and re-spawning is completed.

Don

Hi,

just curious why you'ld bother to add 1st Assam Rifles (which was named 1st Assam Regiment then) and 25th Gurkha Rifles. They're only Battalions without enough combat strength to make any difference. 25th Gurkha Rifles were under direct command of 14th Army but 1st Assam Regiment was part of 1st Indian Infantry Brigade most of the time.

K

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Regiments (adds - mostly Corps Troops):
1st Assam Rifles
25th Gurkha Rifles
1st Medium Artillery
6th Medium Artillery
8th Medium Artillery
8th Belfast Heavy AA


Engineers (adds - these were Corps Troops):
10th Engineer Battalion
12th Engineer Battalion
16th Engineer Battalion
17th Engineer Battalion
20th Engineer Battalion

As always, comments appreciated. However any complete re-work of the Indian Army will have to wait until after the mass of work around V1.5 and re-spawning is completed.

Don

Hi,

just curious why you'ld bother to add 1st Assam Rifles (which was named 1st Assam Regiment then) and 25th Gurkha Rifles. They're only Battalions without enough combat strength to make any difference. 25th Gurkha Rifles were under direct command of 14th Army but 1st Assam Regiment was part of 1st Indian Infantry Brigade most of the time.

K

I added the Assam Rifles because:
1. I wanted a garrison force along the Indian/Burma Border - only the 20th Division and some base forces there now.
2. It is heavily mentioned in the histories.

I added the 25th Gurkha Rifles because they were corp troops, were Gurkhas, and would be available for guarding rear area postions behind any advance by 14th Army.

I do not have a TOE for Indian Regiments but I ASSUME they are the old British style 2-battalion formations.

Since this post I have "un-added" the 6th and 8th Medium Artillery (based on a
Field Artillery web site that was posted recently. I am also considering combining the 16th, 17th, and 20th Engineer Battalions into a large formation named something like "15th Corps Engineers".

Also, after a brief study of Pry's scenarios I will be adding about 2 battalions worth of Infantry to the base forces in larger Indian cities. Still looking into this.

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Can China command units operate in Indo China?
If so that is a great idea.
And remember the units i am thinking of starting are first class reserves with combat experience not the mobilization reserves.

Mike

Yes - restricted command units can operate anywhere they can walk. For example, the IJA 20th Div, can operate in Karachi, if you can clear a path down which it can walk ( and this is a bit unfortunate as it can do this without paying PP ).

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Troop relocations to support addition of six new cities

Liuchow

IJA 19 Mx Bde to Canton.
IJNA 124 Base Force to Haiphong

Chinese 91st Corps to Pakhoi
Chinese 28th Corps, 10th Group Army, 3rd War Area to Nanning

100th Chinese Corps to Liuchow

Ningpo

IJA 15 Div to Soochow
IJA 17 Mx Bde to Ningpo
IJA 4 Div to Shanghai assigned to Southern Area Army

Linfen

3rd New Chinese Corps to Linfen.

Tuyun

Troops already present.

Tsinan

IJA 16 Mx Bde

Suchow

IJA 3 Mx Bde
IJA 9 Mx Bde

Since these LCU changes were similar to my own, I have decided to just use these ones for my modded scenarios for 1.5 (which are done and being uploaded now, finally). It will be interesting to see how these revisions in China work out.

Hi,

Also, after a brief study of Pry's scenarios I will be adding about 2 battalions worth of Infantry to the base forces in larger Indian cities. Still looking into this.

Don will you be just adding a number of Indian squads to the Base Force/city ?
or
An Idea would be to create some actual Battalions ie 3rd Gwalior Maharaja Scindia's Own Bn. or Kholapur Rajaram Rifles. add a device that has a load value of 9999 ie a mortar or mg or field piece which would make the Bn. static.
Ensuring a large number of said device in the pool.

I do not have a TOE for Indian Regiments but I ASSUME they are the old British style 2-battalion formations

Indian Regt's can have/did have from 4 to 10 or more battalions

Cheers

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

Hi,

Don will you be just adding a number of Indian squads to the Base Force/city ?
or
An Idea would be to create some actual Battalions ie 3rd Gwalior Maharaja Scindia's Own Bn. or Kholapur Rajaram Rifles. add a device that has a load value of 9999 ie a mortar or mg or field piece which would make the Bn. static.
Ensuring a large number of said device in the pool.

I believe I am going to follow Pry's lead and add them directly to the base force. We are approaching the point where we need to start thinking about slot conservation.

Indian Regt's can have/did have from 4 to 10 or more battalions

Cheers

That my work out very well - gives me the option of using a brigade TOE. Thanks.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

...

I believe I am going to follow Pry's lead and add them directly to the base force. We are approaching the point where we need to start thinking about slot conservation.

...

I vote for "slot conservation" ... we have just started looking at Chinese OB ... and are already facing limit of <= 67 existing open slots versus initial requirement for about 400 new ones !!!

In looking at the Indian Base Forces it appears there is an error in all scenarios.

TOE 2064 (Indian AF Base Force) includes 40 Indian Rifle Squads but none of the units using this TOE have them. (1st thru 11th Indian Base Force). I believe this means they will not acquire the rifle squads. Not sure which is best - to update the 11 Base Forces or to remove them from the TOE.

The "named" base forces to which Pry has added 50 rifle squads are not assigned to a TOE (Chandpur, Diamond Harbor, Karachi, Bombay, Madras, Panaji). They have a different and much larger force and are static (by inclusion of 9.2in CD guns).

But do we know what Pry is intending to be represented by adding these to the base forces and making them static ... sounds like he is trying to represent para-military "garrison" forces which he doesn't want to wind up "invading" Burma ... or Honshu later on ... so he's adding them to the base forces and "nailing them down" ...

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


In looking at the Indian Base Forces it appears there is an error in all scenarios.

TOE 2064 (Indian AF Base Force) includes 40 Indian Rifle Squads but none of the units using this TOE have them. (1st thru 11th Indian Base Force). I believe this means they will not acquire the rifle squads. Not sure which is best - to update the 11 Base Forces or to remove them from the TOE.

The "named" base forces to which Pry has added 50 rifle squads are not assigned to a TOE (Chandpur, Diamond Harbor, Karachi, Bombay, Madras, Panaji). They have a different and much larger force and are static (by inclusion of 9.2in CD guns).

There was never enough rifle squads available at 40 per month for the base forces to fill out the rifle companies, now with the rate upped to 80 per month you should see Indian base forece start adding rifle squads to them.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

But do we know what Pry is intending to be represented by adding these to the base forces and making them static ... sounds like he is trying to represent para-military "garrison" forces which he doesn't want to wind up "invading" Burma ... or Honshu later on ... so he's adding them to the base forces and "nailing them down" ...

India needed some defensive garrison troops to keep the Japanes player from just taking rear bases, because the allied player is too busy rushing everything else to Burma and left nothing to defend India with, putting them into static formations keeps the Allied player from being able to move them.

You all might have noticed by now that players will use anything and everything if you give them access to it...

ORIGINAL: pry

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


In looking at the Indian Base Forces it appears there is an error in all scenarios.

TOE 2064 (Indian AF Base Force) includes 40 Indian Rifle Squads but none of the units using this TOE have them. (1st thru 11th Indian Base Force). I believe this means they will not acquire the rifle squads. Not sure which is best - to update the 11 Base Forces or to remove them from the TOE.

The "named" base forces to which Pry has added 50 rifle squads are not assigned to a TOE (Chandpur, Diamond Harbor, Karachi, Bombay, Madras, Panaji). They have a different and much larger force and are static (by inclusion of 9.2in CD guns).

There was never enough rifle squads available at 40 per month for the base forces to fill out the rifle companies, now with the rate upped to 80 per month you should see Indian base forece start adding rifle squads to them.

Paul - not sure if I understand. The TOE (2064) has Indian Rifle Squad (device 353) in weapons slot 8 and the 1st Indian Air Base Force ((3483) does not (weapon slot 8 is empty). I had thought that this meant that the 1st Indian Air Base Force could never accept any Indian Rifle Squads, no matter how many might be in the pool (or on the veranda).

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: pry

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


In looking at the Indian Base Forces it appears there is an error in all scenarios.

TOE 2064 (Indian AF Base Force) includes 40 Indian Rifle Squads but none of the units using this TOE have them. (1st thru 11th Indian Base Force). I believe this means they will not acquire the rifle squads. Not sure which is best - to update the 11 Base Forces or to remove them from the TOE.

The "named" base forces to which Pry has added 50 rifle squads are not assigned to a TOE (Chandpur, Diamond Harbor, Karachi, Bombay, Madras, Panaji). They have a different and much larger force and are static (by inclusion of 9.2in CD guns).

There was never enough rifle squads available at 40 per month for the base forces to fill out the rifle companies, now with the rate upped to 80 per month you should see Indian base forece start adding rifle squads to them.

Paul - not sure if I understand. The TOE (2064) has Indian Rifle Squad (device 353) in weapons slot 8 and the 1st Indian Air Base Force ((3483) does not (weapon slot 8 is empty). I had thought that this meant that the 1st Indian Air Base Force could never accept any Indian Rifle Squads, no matter how many might be in the pool (or on the veranda).

No it just means that the unit starts the game without any infantry in it the unit will attempt to build to it's TOE (2064) as the game progresses and if the squads are available.

Like wise a unit that has extra things attached at the start like 7 or 8 tanks will not replace them once destroyed and will rebuild based on its TOE which does not include any tanks.

ORIGINAL: pry
No it just means that the unit starts the game without any infantry in it the unit will attempt to build to it's TOE (2064) as the game progresses and if the squads are available.

Like wise a unit that has extra things attached at the start like 7 or 8 tanks will not replace them once destroyed and will rebuild based on its TOE which does not include any tanks.

OK, I am now officially confused. From the editor manual:

If the Formation Field is set to 0 (zero) the game will consider this as the TOE and attempt to maintain it, if the Formation is pointing to another TOE (2064) then it will build towards that TOE no matter what is displayed in the starting unit field... No Base force starts the game with infantry attached (Displayed in the location slot 8 for instance) but every base force adds infantry squads because the TOE calls for it and it is added as the squads become available... Just trust me that is the way it works...

Now if slot 8 has something else listed in it at the start of the game then that will cause a issue with the devices not lining up properly

Got it now - Thanks!

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

...

Lastly, I am considering adding a new base to Malaya, in hex (23,47), so that there is not an unimpeded railway line from Kota Bharu to Johore Bahru. For those who have playtested CHS or my map - do you think that this is a good idea? Is it even necessary? The base would be an airfield of, say, value 0(1).

Andrew

I assume the primary reason for adding it - is to add delay to the Japanese going from Khota Baru to Singapore during the initial invasion. This would give a bit more time to pull back the troops from Alor Star. So it has a purpose. But it is a compromise of what I understand of the CHS concept - to be as accurate as we can be - personnally I'd do a lot of other things before I'd do this - but I don't "oppose it" per se .. if you add it ... maybe give it a level 3 fort so it has some speed bump capability. And be aware, adding it may cause as many problems as it solves as the AI may pull supply out of Singapore to send to this base.

I wonder how beneficial it is to be historically accurate with our work when the game system seems to defeat such effort.

The Japanese 25th Army landed at Kota Bharu on 8 Decemeber 1941. It took them nine weeks to move down to Singapore and accept Percival's surrender. At that juncture Yamashita's force was about as worn out physically as Percival's and near supply exhaustion. The big difference between the Japanese and British forces seems to have been morale and sense of purpose.

However that was, as everything in the game moves too fast then the best object of this project would seem to be to slow down all game functions where possible.

At present there are five rail hexes to be negotiated from Kota Bharu to Johore Bahru along the eastern rail route. Has anyone experienced a Malaya campaign which required nine weeks or 63 game turns of Japanese combat and movement down the Malaya peninsula until Singapore falls? And keep in mind that was best case, a full month ahead of the Japanese war plan, against an ill-trained, disorganized British force with sinking morale.

Maybe the rail line from Kota Bharu to Johore Bahru should be downsized to a road at best. That could only help to slow this game down. If nothing else it would encourage the Japanese player take the rail route down the western side of Malaya, which is what they did anyway.

That alone should tell us something of the eastern railway route during WWII, which was rough everywhere, basically just a single cut through thick jungle and mountainous terrain. The Japanese tore much of this railroad up to use on the Burma railway, the best use they could find for it, and that should to tell us something else.

If the Japanese player is encouraged to take the western route, this would add two extra hexes of transit south to Singapore, one of which is a lateral trail hex. That sounds both slower to me and historical, and slower, at least, is always a good thing with this game.

That little "speed bump" in 23,47 (which sounds like Kuala Lipis to me) isn't going to accomplish much. For sure it won't affect Japanese supply the way we would want, a concurrent consideration.

Accuracy sounds fine, but if that doesn't get us where we want to be in terms of game play vis-a-vis Gary's model then it only comes out as window dressing, and in this case window dressing that works against our purpose.

Below are two maps from the U.S. Military Academy World War II atlas. These afford a good strategic view of the situation.

Here's a picture of the "Jungle Train" route. This rail line was opened up again in the 1950s.