Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Prince is just being argumentative. Don't worry about it. Trolls have a hard time staying on topic. I suppose his point is that defending is easier than attacking. Wow. He is smart. Except this can also be a defensive manuver.

But my point WAS that reverse speed (which is quite slow and Mobius is correct) can be increased while reversing down a slope. That's physics and not worth arguing about.

And it IS on topic.

In defense and covering a retreat, the T-34 with the turret at six o'clock is often dug in on a commanding height along a road or on the edge of woods or villages. Then after surprisingly opening fire from ambush, the T-34 can be driven out of the concealed position still under cover.

(4) All that gunfire created a haze. When it got thick enough, I crawled back towards the houses behind me and dug my second foxhole in a woodshed. I could now look out without being seen, and I had protection against direct hits from mortar fire. The shooting got heavier again when I noticed two Sherman tanks, (6) and (7), advancing and rapidly firing. My wood shed was turning into a sieve. Suddenly, a German tank commander tapped me on the shoulder and asked where the enemy tanks where. I shouted at him to get down, but he didn't budge. He just stood there and repeated his request. Knowing that we wouldn't survive the next 5 seconds up there, I did climb out of my foxhole and in the smoke and haze pointed the Shermans out to him. He immediately ran off and I, even faster, dropped back into my hole.

(5) A few minutes later, a big German Tiger tank roared up next to me, stopped and instantly fired a round at Sherman tank (6). However, the shell, grazing the ground, ricochet off with a spine chilling screech. Yet, it must have also glanced off the Sherman tank, because I now saw its crew emerge from the conning tower and flee. I fumbled for my dirt-covered rifle, but was too slow to get off a shot. The German tank now advanced maybe 25 m, a second round flashed across and the Sherman tank blew up. The crew may nevertheless have gotten killed nearby. Obviously aware of the danger, the other Sherman tank was by now in full retreat. But our tank commander also didn't wait around to see who might now shoot at him. He too got into reverse and barreled back down the incline, heaven help who was in his way. The tank action apparently defeated the Scottish Cmd Black Watch (Essex Scottish, 5th Brigade) attack on the 8th and 9th. (6) and (7) shows Sherman tank positions in the attack as described above. - (8) We were told not to direct fire at the house of Dutch doctor Van de Kar, J.P.M., because Canadian and German wounded in addition to civilians were there in the doctor's care.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Interesting shoot and scoot example. Note the ricocheting AP round also.

http://www.deutschesoldaten.com/personal/knolle.htm

(4) All that gunfire created a haze. When it got thick enough, I crawled back towards the houses behind me and dug my second foxhole in a woodshed. I could now look out without being seen, and I had protection against direct hits from mortar fire. The shooting got heavier again when I noticed two Sherman tanks, (6) and (7), advancing and rapidly firing. My wood shed was turning into a sieve. Suddenly, a German tank commander tapped me on the shoulder and asked where the enemy tanks where. I shouted at him to get down, but he didn't budge. He just stood there and repeated his request. Knowing that we wouldn't survive the next 5 seconds up there, I did climb out of my foxhole and in the smoke and haze pointed the Shermans out to him. He immediately ran off and I, even faster, dropped back into my hole.

(5) A few minutes later, a big German Tiger tank roared up next to me, stopped and instantly fired a round at Sherman tank (6). However, the shell, grazing the ground, ricochet off with a spine chilling screech. Yet, it must have also glanced off the Sherman tank, because I now saw its crew emerge from the conning tower and flee. I fumbled for my dirt-covered rifle, but was too slow to get off a shot. The German tank now advanced maybe 25 m, a second round flashed across and the Sherman tank blew up. The crew may nevertheless have gotten killed nearby. Obviously aware of the danger, the other Sherman tank was by now in full retreat. But our tank commander also didn't wait around to see who might now shoot at him. He too got into reverse and barreled back down the incline, heaven help who was in his way. The tank action apparently defeated the Scottish Cmd Black Watch (Essex Scottish, 5th Brigade) attack on the 8th and 9th. (6) and (7) shows Sherman tank positions in the attack as described above. - (8) We were told not to direct fire at the house of Dutch doctor Van de Kar, J.P.M., because Canadian and German wounded in addition to civilians were there in the doctor's care.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

But firing in the orders phase, even after a short move, and then withdrawing in the reaction phase (a form of shoot and scoot mind you) IS a WWII occurance.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

If I have to pull a platoon back while playing, either to reposition the unit or because it's simply too hot where they are currently located, I use the WITHDRAW command.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

As far as shoot n scoot within a phase, that may be a bit much and very limited to close combat in towns, etc. Also limited to experienced crews.

As far as allowing a vehicle to use engage-move and then reverse in the next phase. I am all for it.

I also think that a German platoon using bound should be able to reverse in the subsequant phase.

Buttoned vehicles may reverse shorter distances and perhaps slower.

It should certainly be impacted by experience, afv design (visibility/5 man vs 4 man crew, etc), panic level and some other things.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
And now let me assert something. There is simply no way that the actions associated with the Tiger's advance, engagment of the enemy, and subsequent (exigent) withdrawl can be shoe-horned into the 40 second turns used in PcZ. I'd also assert that NOTHING that he's posted in the way of "documentation" suggests that WW2 AFV were advancing for 20 seconds into LOS of an enemy, firing two rounds, and then withdrawing to safety in the remaining time. There'd be no time left on the clock. In the context of the game, which is after all the APPROPRIATE topic, his concept is at once both ABSURD and IRRELEVANT. That USERNAME continues to advance these specious arguments gives pause to question his motives for posting them HERE in the first place.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
By the way, the faultiness of some argumentation here is comical.

Exactly WHY does the vehcile have to 'get back' in 40 seconds? Would it not be acceptable that it at least start a rearward movement of sorts after firing? Games do not drive reality.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

As a person that has worked as a motion control engineer, I am certainly snickering.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

But I have also reversed in tracked vehicles. Its called a drill. Just like everything else.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Well I read the book in my backyard. The grass was green and mown recently. I usually read the words from left to right.

ORIGINAL: Mobius

One thing is that it does relate to my turret down example previously stated. Instead of first spotting the enemy tanks from a turret down hide position the Tiger commander reconnoitered on foot and left his tank hidden. This is not doable in a game at this scale.
But it does show that if an unseen tank knows exactly were an enemy tank is, and the enemy doesn't know he is there, he has a chance to shoot first even though he is not stationary. Range or haze might give him a chance. (I hope the game is delaying a little for sighting to take place and not doing it instanteously like RTS.)

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
By the way, the faultiness of some argumentation here is comical.

Exactly WHY does the vehcile have to 'get back' in 40 seconds? Would it not be acceptable that it at least start a rearward movement of sorts after firing? Games do not drive reality.

Why does it have to be in the same turn?
You seem to be saying that unless all this can happen in one turn then its not realistic.
There are no 'turns' in reality.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
By the way, the faultiness of some argumentation here is comical.

Exactly WHY does the vehcile have to 'get back' in 40 seconds? Would it not be acceptable that it at least start a rearward movement of sorts after firing? Games do not drive reality.

Why does it have to be in the same turn?
You seem to be saying that unless all this can happen in one turn then its not realistic.
There are no 'turns' in reality.

No you saying what I am saying. Prince is saying that its a big argument point that it CAN'T happen in the same 'turn' (actually phase).

This is too funny.

Yeah Prince. More specious arguments from you. And many people have served in the military, worked for military contarctors, gotten engineering degrees afterwards, worked in many engineering disciplines and are very well read also.

And please refrain from using the 'Royal -We'. Its so typical of someone that is losing an argument.

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
No you saying what I am saying. Prince is saying that its a big argument point that it CAN'T happen in the same 'turn' (actually phase).
This is too funny.

Yeah Prince. More specious arguments from you. And many people have served in the military, worked for military contarctors, gotten engineering degrees afterwards, worked in many engineering disciplines and are very well read also.
And please refrain from using the 'Royal -We'. Its so typical of someone that is losing an argument.