Matrix Games Forums

Some questions about naval battles:
(i) If a task force is loading or unloading prior to battle, is any penalty applied to the transports during subsequent combat? I would hope they are penalised in terms of speed, at least for the first round.

(ii) Does the biggest attacking ship always attack the biggest escort? Is it possible for the larger attacking ships to target the higher value transports whilst the smaller attackers engage the escorts?

(iii) Why does crossing the T occur when the out-manuevered side only have one ship? Has the silly message about only returning fire with the leading ships of a one ship task force been fixed?

ORIGINAL: Mobeer

Some questions about naval battles:
(i) If a task force is loading or unloading prior to battle, is any penalty applied to the transports during subsequent combat? I would hope they are penalised in terms of speed, at least for the first round.

(ii) Does the biggest attacking ship always attack the biggest escort? Is it possible for the larger attacking ships to target the higher value transports whilst the smaller attackers engage the escorts?

(iii) Why does crossing the T occur when the out-manuevered side only have one ship? Has the silly message about only returning fire with the leading ships of a one ship task force been fixed?

I believe that only the forward guns are able to fire.

I know the navy team have done a lot of work on ship v ship and TF v TF but I have to be honest I am not wure what.

I think they have made daylight surface combat TF v unescorted or light escorted mass convoy more bloody.

I always figure that escorts will sacrifice themselves to protect their noncombatant charges when attacked by surface forces.  I had a force of two BB's, 3 CL's and several DD's surprise a Jap TF of a DD, MSW and PC escorting two AK's.  I sank everything but the biggest AK although I did get some shots at it, and chalked it up to the gallantry of the totally outclassed escorts buying time for the AK to slip away in the dark.

Exactly, but it would be nice sometimes if the escort wasn't always successful in it sacrifice: at the moment they always succeed and delay. Even one ship ignoring the escort and sprinting round should have caught it. That is another criteria: if the attackers are willing to split (based on relative strengths and admiral ratings) they should have a better chance of getting in to the convoy.

Savo Island is another instance where the escort got smeared and the convoy got away. The Battle of Honairu also had the escort distract the enemy warships away from the convoy. The same with the Battle of the Badoeng Strait.

The only time I can think of where the attacking ships got in amongst the convoy while the escort "got it wrong" and went dashing off in the wrong direction was the Battle of Balikpapan.

The British escorts did their job several times vs the Italians in the Med.  There was at least one time where the Italian BB and supporting ships kept away from the escorts for fear of torpedo attacks and let the convoy get away.  Then there was the Rawalpindi vs Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and Jarvis Bay vs Scheer.  Both those were armed merchant ships that slowed the attackers down enough to let most of the merchants escape.

I suppose a more aggressive surface force commander should be allowed to get into the merchants before smashing the escorts, but don't know if that's how it is modelled now or not.

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Even one ship ignoring the escort and sprinting round should have caught it.

I agree there should be some chance of a convoy getting caught in spite of an escort, but I think sprinting around would probably take far longer than it might at first appear. Unless you have truly unlimited time, going through the escort is about the only way (if they are interposed). Of course that carries risk...

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Exactly, but it would be nice sometimes if the escort wasn't always successful in it sacrifice: at the moment they always succeed and delay. Even one ship ignoring the escort and sprinting round should have caught it. That is another criteria: if the attackers are willing to split (based on relative strengths and admiral ratings) they should have a better chance of getting in to the convoy.

Absolutely agree. There's a reason why VCs were given out when pluckly little escorts took on big enemy ships. I've no objection to the escort putting itself in the way, as long as the likelihood is that it gets swatted away straight off the bat.

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

Absolutely agree. There's a reason why VCs were given out when pluckly little escorts took on big enemy ships. I've no objection to the escort putting itself in the way, as long as the likelihood is that it gets swatted away straight off the bat.

I'm not totally sure about WITP but it can certainly happen in UV and they use basically the same game engine....

See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1479795&mpage=1&key=��

In the above case, not one but two overwhelmingly powerful task forces steamrollered over the escorts and inflicted carnage on a hapless convoy in the same engagement!!

Though the combat is presented on the screen in a very abstract manner (ships lined up on the edges of the screen), what impressed me the most was the situational awareness the underlying model seems to recreate through the choices of engaged ships and the combat engagement ranges.

I didn't report it at the time but I believe the convoy consisted of about 40-60 ships* and about a quarter of the merchants were sunk outright and damage inflicted on many others. The fact so many escaped I would put down to so many targets compared to the number of firing ships and the fact the convoy would have scattered wildly into the darkness at the onset of such a disaster.

[size=-1](* Only the AI would have put so many targets in such a vulnerable position!!)[/size]

The raiders were ordered to return to base by daylight so I suppose they didn't have the time to hunt down all the fleeing fugitives (shades of Savo Island). I wonder what would have happened if I had ordered them to remain on patrol in the hex??? (Would had a visit by Miss Nell & Betty most likely...)

Just last night I had a surface warfare TF surprise a transport convoy, and got a message saying the escorts had ordered the merchants to scatter and that my forces were chasing them down.  This was in the combat screen and needless to say I was a bit surprised to see it.

Then, later on, I sent two powerful SW TF's to Eniwetok and found over 200 (!!!) merchants, auxiliaries and escorts there, in multiple TF's.  The two TF's had a great time shooting up the merchants, but I think they completely destroyed only one TF; time and time again they'd blow away the little MSW's and PC's and let the merchant ships escape.

Thanks Reg. I do think the engine is far more complex than some give it credit for. My problem has always been with determining what is an 'odd result' and what is an 'odd result which keeps happening when it shouldn't'. [:o] John's example is one I've seen to - the message pops up that the TF has scattered. And I do like that. But then I've seen far too many examples - even in daylight (you can get away with it against the AI hehe) - where a surface force has spent the entire combat phase beating up a couple of PCs and letting everything else hightail out of there. Once in a while is fine, but it does seem to happen far too frequently. That said, it could be that I just notice it more than on the occasions when PC1, PC2 and MSW3 get sunk in the first round of combat... Yeah, I'm confused.

I'm going to replay my previous turn from last night but this time subdivide the two big SW TF's into four or five smaller ones before they go into Eniwetok, and see what happens.  There's at least 4 AS ships in there, plus a dozen or so big tankers and dozens of AP/AK's.  I figure the more TF's I've got shooting the better chance I've got to sink the majority of them...

Samar could be also considered a battle in which the escorts repulsed the engaging superior TF from slow, vulnerable ships.

I think you guys are on the right track with op points. The example I gave was a very favorable situation. I achieved surprise, engaged at point blank range (2000yds) and overwelmed the escort very quickly (I don't even think they got a chance to fire back!!).

If combat is op point based there would have been plenty of time (points) left to engage the convoy.

The examples you gave of a PC putting up a good fight against the odds and taking time to be dispatched plus the additional time required to close distant engagement ranges so the convoy escapes is probably the behaviour we want. I think it is now just a case of getting the balance right.

I re-ran my turn with the two SF TF's raiding Eniwetok, but before sending them in I divided the ships equally into three TF's.  Two TF's had 4-5 cruisers and 5-6 destroyers, and the third one had a BB, 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers.  They started the turn 3 hexes from Eniwetok and I had them run in at full speed, set to disengage and head back home rather than to patrol (to get away from the Bettys).
 
TF #1 engaged three different transport TF's; the first one lost all the escorts (a mix of PC's and MSW's) and half the merchants.  The second convoy was a small one with only one escort and 3 merchants (all sunk).  The last fight was with what appeared to be an ASW TF with a mix of PC's, MSW's and two DD's (3/4 sunk).
 
The second SF TF engaged a damaged CA (Maya) with no escorts and sank her, then fought a convoy with about a dozen ships (mostly AP's and PC's), sinking 2/3 of them.  They fought a third convoy of AK's with no escorts, sinking nearly all of them.
 
The TF with the BB came in last and engaged a convoy of tankers, sinking all six of them, and then a transport TF, sinking about half.  None of the AS or AR ships I spotted in previous trial runs of this turn were engaged or even seen, and none of my TF's met the gigantic (three columns' worth of ships) TF I saw the first time I ran this turn.
 
One thing I did notice was if I hit the "Exit" button during a fight where my ships were focusing on just a few ships, in the combat report they damaged or sank nearly every ship in the convoy.  If I sit there and watch the entire fight, my ships blow just a few enemy ships away and then break off combat.  Anyone else noticed that?

submarines do not move or behave properly

Players should be able to decide if they engage in submerged or suface operations

Right now - subs always are surfaced. They detect like surface ships - and they are detected like surface ships - and they move at full or cruising speed like surface ships.

IF a player wanted to operate submerged by day - the sub would NOT move by day - and its chance of detecting a target would decline by a very large power - on the order of 50 - during the day. At night it would move and detect normally. On the other hand, the chance of finding the sub should decline even more - on the order of 100. A submerged sub would almost never be able to attack an enemy ship even if it is detected - in an open sea hex (USS Indianapolis case - lightning strikes). In a coastal or port hex, the chance is somewhat better. But if it has radar, the radar helps it detect - although not to engage. A sub underwater has a practical speed of 2 or 3 knots - faster than that it cannot move enen 1 hex total - and has no tactical power at all once it moved that hex. In practical terms a submerged sub is stationary.


A surfaced sub has lookouts almost as good as a surface ship does (worse only in that they are not very high up nor very numerous) - and it is able to move at full speed or cruising speed to get into a firing position.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

submarines do not move or behave properly

Players should be able to decide if they engage in submerged or suface operations

Right now - subs always are surfaced. They detect like surface ships - and they are detected like surface ships - and they move at full or cruising speed like surface ships.

That's not entirely correct, Sid. However, we have modified submarine behaviour somewhat, unless my memory fails me (which is entirely likely).

I don't agree that it should be up to the player if they fight submerged or surfaced. That's too much micromanagement for a game of stock WitP's scale, much less AE.

Actually most subs could make between 5-10 knots while submerged, it wasn't a matter of speed, but one of endurance. You can only stay submerged as long as the batteries lasted, then you had to surface to recharge them. Once snorkels came into play, that changed as well.

One thing I did notice was if I hit the "Exit" button during a fight where my ships were focusing on just a few ships, in the combat report they damaged or sank nearly every ship in the convoy.  If I sit there and watch the entire fight, my ships blow just a few enemy ships away and then break off combat.  Anyone else noticed that?

 
Good point. i also have noticed a significant difference in combat results when i use the exit button - and would love to know whether this is just coincidence, or are the code routines different?