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ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

The problems with supply will not just relate to beating the Spanish army. Remember the Germans have to take Gibraltar at the end of a very long and precarious supply chain - after all that is the purpose of this adventure.

However, re the bit in bold, this still stands as once again you've made a completely untrue statement that really shows you and your debating style and the way you have conducted this debate. Now, if I am wrong and you are right, please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. Third request.

I didn't say you called the "supermen". I said you were building them up into supermen. And that's exactly what the post I bolded was attempting to do.

warspite1

The problems with supply will not just relate to beating the Spanish army. Remember the Germans have to take Gibraltar at the end of a very long and precarious supply chain - after all that is the purpose of this adventure.

Please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. Fourth request.

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Check the map that goes with that one. Somehow, the Germans took that very route in 1941!!

Yes, there was a ferry there before the bridge, so a one-time crossing would have been feasible. Are you suggesting that it is as easy to run supply operations over ferry as over a bridge?

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




The road network sure changed has with new roads. Just like in every country, new roads in new places. Why not go back to 1940 and take I10, I45, and/or I69 out of Houston, Texas, USA?

So, let me get this straight: In the 1940's all roads in Spain went through the mountains instead of around them because the Spanish are idiots?

Some of them did, the roads went through tunnels. It happens all over the world.

So now you are insulting all Spaniards? Or just all civil engineers? Or just the civil engineers who know that road grades above 7% are obstacles? Not to mention sharp curves being obstacles?

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Apparently it was for the Germans!

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




You're so desperate to justify your vile insult. Despicable.

Yes. The Italians and Japanese were Axis Allies - before they became BELLIGERENTS! Big difference between an Ally and a belligerent!



Note the small 'a'.



The same judgement of them that the Allies made of them after the war!!! Collaborators!!!!



Official vs. de facto.

warspite1

More faux anger -

Righteous anger. Maybe you'd like to get a few more insults out of your system.

and still you don't answer the question. How very.... typical. Now, once again, show me where you used the term belligerents to describe the Italians and Japanese. Third Request

They were Allies (members of the Axis alliance) prior to becoming belligerents. Once they joined WWII, then they became belligerents.

By the way, please show me where Ally vs ally is a thing. Thanks

Official vs. de facto. Capitol 'A' - member of the Axis Alliance. Lower-case 'a', de facto collaborator.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



I'll ask again: If the purpose of Vichy wasn't to create an enclave within France that they Germans stayed out of, then why would the Germans agree to such a condition!!!!!!!



Franco.



After conquest of Spain by the Germans.



Restoration of Franco to control of Spain and a protected enclave within Spain that the Germans stay out of.



Franco gets restored to power in Spain and Germany gets Gibraltar and a peaceful Spain (which was all they wanted).

warspite1

I'll respond to this later when I've stopped laughing.

Edit:
Started to respond (even though I said I wouldn't do your job for you) and then thought better of it. I've asked for a proper case to be made and you produced what? four lines and less than 50 words.....

As I said in a previous post, you actually seem to delight in debating in such a fashion. It doesn't do you any favours.

But fine, but I'm still not going to do your job for you. If you can't actually be bothered, then nor can I.

What you have high level 'outlined' is laughable. You haven't got a clue what Vichy was about, but despite that you think it would be great if the Spanish had one too and you come up with those four lines.

Try again - but this time how about you make some effort? Read about Vichy first, understand what that was about and then see if you can really apply this to Spain.

You like to bloviate. I like to be precise. I think that's a winner for me.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Did I really need to state that the Spanish lines would have to be repaired - just as they have to be in every military campaign?!?! And, even in your quote above, I still do not mention the Spanish rail system. The French rail system will get the supplies to the rail head at the border and then trucks can deliver the supplies the rest of the way.

warspite1

Thank-you for this post. If you ever try and suggest that you have the moral high ground in ANY debate I will have this to hand.

Lets be completely clear here. You said:

"I never mentioned the Spanish rail system".

I said that was untrue and that you did. To evidence this I provide a post from you that says:

"It's obvious that a rail line can handle a vast amount of supplies. More than enough for the action required in Spain. Remember, Spain has a tiny army. That means a tiny amount of combat needed to eliminate them".

And how do you respond to that?

"I still do not mention the Spanish rail system".

So in saying that a rail line can handle vast amount of supplies and that it can supply more than enough for the Spanish campaign, you would have us believe that you were not suggesting that the Spanish rail system could supply the Germans with all it needed???? But that was the whole point of you providing that irrelevant Wiki article on US railroads in the 21st Century - because you were seeking to prove that the Germans could use the Spanish rail network.

I am surprised you allowed yourself to type this response out. Not your finest hour Lemay. Pretty shocking to be honest - along with the post about the Axis allies, you've really shown your level here. You are so desperate to be right over every single point, that you've resorted to this....

The line to the Spanish border is a single line. I was referring to that - and, obviously, to any sections of Spanish rail that were repaired to the European standard. Again, I did NOT mention the Spanish rail system.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




I don't know why you keep clinging to this rot when it's so obvious that you're wrong.

The Greeks were just defending - sitting in their foxholes without moving. The Germans were advancing and on the offensive. Obviously, their supply needs were proportionately far greater. Yet there they are being supplied over those very same roads you claim can't be used for supply. (By the way, here's another example of the Germans supplying themselves over roads at distances of well over 500 km. [:D]).

If the Germans can supply themselves offensively over those roads, how could the Greeks not be able to provide defensive supply over those same roads?!

warspite1

My goodness!!

What is wrong with you. Are you actually trying to be wrong on every point?

The Greeks were just defending - sitting in their foxholes without moving.

Why don't you stop spouting rubbish that betrays you are totally and utterly out of your depth and try reading some history? Try reading something, anything about the Greco-Italian war and you will understand how thoroughly absurd that comment is.

The Germans were advancing and on the offensive. Obviously, their supply needs were proportionately far greater.

Oh dear..... Please re-read that and come back when you've realised what a total load of rubbish you've spoken. If you can't then I'll point you in the right direction - but I'm a fair man and so will give you a chance.

Yet there they are being supplied over those very same roads you claim can't be used for supply. (By the way, here's another example of the Germans supplying themselves over roads at distances of well over 500 km. [:D]).

If the Germans can supply themselves offensively over those roads, how could the Greeks not be able to provide defensive supply over those same roads?!

Do you even understand basic English????? Read my post again. There is a difference between Could and Did. Yes? When you've found out what the Greeks did then you can provide that evidence here. Until then I'll listen to the professionals in the US Army who have given their understand of what the Greeks Did during their study of the Balkan Campaign.

And I never said that they DID supply themselves by those routes. I said they could have.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Check the map that goes with that one. Somehow, the Germans took that very route in 1941!!

Yes, there was a ferry there before the bridge, so a one-time crossing would have been feasible. Are you suggesting that it is as easy to run supply operations over ferry as over a bridge?

Apparently it was for the Germans!

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



So, let me get this straight: In the 1940's all roads in Spain went through the mountains instead of around them because the Spanish are idiots?

Some of them did, the roads went through tunnels. It happens all over the world.

So now you are insulting all Spaniards? Or just all civil engineers? Or just the civil engineers who know that road grades above 7% are obstacles? Not to mention sharp curves being obstacles?

No. I'm insulting his stupid study that he insists on holding up as gospel.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



So, let me get this straight: In the 1940's all roads in Spain went through the mountains instead of around them because the Spanish are idiots?

warspite1

Why do you have to be so black and white to the point of absurdity????

Why would ALL Spanish roads go through mountains? Please show me where I so much as suggested such a load of nonsense?

Edit: Sorry this seems to be a response to RangerJoe but had some of my posts. My comment is in response to your last comment only.

Your 'study' insists that the German supply paths must go through the mountains. So, there must be no roads around those mountains. So, it's saying the Spanish are idiots.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




This man is not "happy to take German primary source material at face value". Oh dear!

warspite1

Well a shell shortage never came up in the German Military Strategy and Spain, so you can take that up with RangerJoe

Oh no!! We'll have to throw out that entire study as fraudulent!!

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




I didn't say you called the "supermen". I said you were building them up into supermen. And that's exactly what the post I bolded was attempting to do.

warspite1

The problems with supply will not just relate to beating the Spanish army. Remember the Germans have to take Gibraltar at the end of a very long and precarious supply chain - after all that is the purpose of this adventure.

Please provide the post that suggests I've said that they are anything like supermen and/or the Germans can't beat them and/or they will hold the Germans up for an inordinate length of time. In other words Lemay, put your money where your mouth is and put up or shut up because I am fed up with you mis-representing what I say. Fourth request.

For the third time, see the post I bolded.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



So, let me get this straight: In the 1940's all roads in Spain went through the mountains instead of around them because the Spanish are idiots?

Some of them did, the roads went through tunnels. It happens all over the world.

So now you are insulting all Spaniards? Or just all civil engineers? Or just the civil engineers who know that road grades above 7% are obstacles? Not to mention sharp curves being obstacles?

No. I'm insulting his stupid study that he insists on holding up as gospel.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Once again, and I repeat, why would the Spanish ask the British to leave before the war is won? If the war isn't won then Spain isn't going to be free and the Government in Exile isn't going home to Madrid anytime soon.

So let's be clear:

- Did Denmark refuse the British and Americans use of Iceland because they never thought they would be able to evict them?
- Did Greece refuse the British the use of Crete because they never thought they would be able to evict them?

What is so special about Spain (apart from the fact you've said something and can't ever be wrong)? Please try and think things through when responding and provide a well constructed, thought out response as to what the motivations would be.

For the nth time: Franco is a fascist dictator. He is going to be suspicious of the Allies' attitude towards him.

warspite1

What the....? And what was Metaxas - a liberal democrat? [8|]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

argh...when will the insanity end? ? ?

Can we get back to the second question, again?

And no to the other lunacy ... must be a shift in the moon for Pete's sake ...

Warspite could you capture that one post you wrote after trying to turn the ship around again?