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ORIGINAL: warspite1

...last ones from me tonight, the sole Mexican naval representative and one of the two Peruvian cruisers.

[4304 Anahuac - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 6,800 hp
.B Top Speed: 14 knots
.B Main armament: 2 x 9-inch (240mm), 4 x 4.7-inch (120mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 3,162 tons
.B Thickest armour: 14-inch (belt)
.P Strictly speaking this is a World In Flames "What if" counter. The name
ship on this counter was scrapped by the Mexican Navy before the period covered
by World In Flames. The remaining vessels within the Mexican Navy at that time
were insufficient to warrant even a World In Flames flotilla counter.
.P The coastal defence ship Anahuac began life as a Marshal Deodoro-class vessel,
built for the Brazilian Navy by the French in 1898. She was one of two ships of
the class and was sold to Mexico in 1924.
.P Strangely, given her lengthy coastline and central position in the Americas,
Mexico has never had a large navy. The purchase of Marshal Deodoro was part of an
effort to redress this issue, but the exercise amounted to little, and after
fourteen years of being used mainly as a training vessel, the Mexicans scrapped
her.
.P Anahuac was named after the Battle of Anahuac in 1835 in which the Mexicans
defeated a Texan army.
.P ARM Anahuac was scrapped in 1938.


[4305 Almirante Grau - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 14,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 24 knots
.B Main armament: 2 x 6-inch (152mm), 8 x 3-inch (76.2mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 3,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: No belt armour
.P The Almirante Grau-class cruisers were built for the Peruvian navy between
1906 and 1907. They were the backbone of their fleet until they were both
scrapped in 1958.
.P They were officially termed as scout cruisers and were designed and built in
the United Kingdom. They were lightly armed and armoured ships.
.P In the mid-twenties they were refitted, during which they were modified from
being coal burning and given an oil burning propulsion system. A further refit
took place in the UK in the mid-thirties, and they were given new machinery and
fitted with replacement 3-inch anti-aircraft guns.
.P Almirante Grau was completed in October 1906. She was named after the famous
Peruvian Admiral, Miguel Grau, who was killed fighting the Chilean Navy at the
Battle of Angamos in October 1879.
.P BAP Almirante Grau was scrapped in 1958.

I hope your going to give credit to Wosung and Froonp for providing the links and information on both these ships.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I'm starting to think I want someone to build me a South America in Flames game to play covering the 19th Century.

Warspite1

Yes, there`s some interesting stuff here - all of which I am only finding out in any detail for the first time. When I get some time I think I`ll try and get some books on the history of South America, the struggle for independence and the wars and disputes that took place afterwards.

...the last of the South Americans - 1 of 2 Brazilian counters.


[4307 Minas Gerais - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 23,500 hp
.B Top Speed: 21 knots
.B Main armament: 12 x 12-inch (305mm), 22 x 4.7-inch (120mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 21,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: 9-inch (belt)
.P In the early years of the 20th century, the Brazilian Government began a
program to expand and modernise their navy in order to challenge the supremacy of
the Argentine navy and to ensure Brazil had a powerful, modern fleet as befitting
her status as the largest country in South America.
.P There were numerous wars and border disputes between the newly independent
countries of South America in the 19th Century. As ever, a strong military was
needed in order to protect disputed borders; or indeed to back up a claim on
territory being coveted.
.P However, what the Brazilians did in 1907 shocked the naval world. She ordered
the building of two battleships that were at that time, the most powerful ships
in any navy in the world. The Minas Gerais-class battleships, Minas Gerais and
Sao Paulo, were built in the United Kingdom between 1907 and 1910. They were
named after what were then the two most important of the country`s twenty-six
states.
.P These were fast, well armed and well armoured vessels, and they gave Brazil
a dreadnought type battleship before all but the United Kingdom and the United
States.
.P Minas Gerais was completed in January 1910 and Sao Paulo followed six months
later. However, a shortage of cash meant that neither ship was well maintained,
and such was the pace of naval development in the years prior to World War I,
they soon fell behind their contemporaries in terms of the latest developments
and modifications.
.P After Brazil declared war on Germany in 1917, both ships were sent to Europe,
although neither saw action and both were sent to the United States for long
overdue refits at the end of the war.
.P A further modernisation program was undertaken in the thirties, although only
Minas Gerais was to benefit from this as the poor condition of Sao Paulo made her
modernisation uneconomical. Minas Gerais was altered from a coal to an oil
burning vessel, her two funnels were trunked into one and she was given new
machinery. Her weaponry was also upgraded with the elevation on her main armament
being increased, two additional secondary guns were fitted and light anti-
aircraft weapons were also added.
.P Brazil broke off relations with Germany in January 1942 and she then declared
war in August of that year. By this time, Sao Paulo was essentially fit only to
act as a coastal defence vessel and even Minas Gerais was too obsolete to see
front-line service. Instead it was left to other Brazilian vessels to play their
part in the war; mostly by providing escort for convoys in the South Atlantic.
.P Minas Gerais was scrapped in 1954, Sao Paulo had been lost at sea while being
towed to the scrapyard three years earlier.

2/2

[4310 Bahia - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 18,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 26.5 knots
.B Main armament: 10 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 6 x 3-pdr (47mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 3,100 tons
.B Thickest armour: No belt armour
.P As part of the Brazilian naval expansion program in the early years of the
20th Century (see Minas Gerais and Sao Paulo), the Brazilian Government ordered
two cruisers in 1907.
.P The two ships of the Bahia-class, Bahia and Rio Grande Do Sul, were designed
and built in the United Kingdom and were based on the Royal Navy`s scout cruisers
of the Adventure-class. They were each named after a Brazilian State.
.P As scout cruisers, these ships were fast and lightly armoured vessels and both
ships exceeded their designed speed in trials.
.P They saw service in the First world War, after which, in the twenties, they
had replacement machinery fitted that further improved their top speed. The ships
remained in service long enough to take an active part in World War II after the
Brazilian declaration of war on Germany in August 1942.
.P During the war the Bahia-class ships were mostly used to escort merchant
vessels in the South Atlantic. The war was almost over when, on the 4th July 1945
Bahia was operating in the South Atlantic. Suddenly there was an internal explosion
and she quickly sank with the loss of 294 officers and crew.
.P Her sister survived the war and was scrapped in 1948.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

2/2

[4310 Bahia - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 18,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 26.5 knots
.B Main armament: 10 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 6 x 3-pdr (47mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 3,100 tons
.B Thickest armour: No belt armour
.P As part of the Brazilian naval expansion program in the early years of the
20th Century (see Minas Gerais and Sao Paulo), the Brazilian Government ordered
two cruisers in 1907.
.P The two ships of the Bahia-class, Bahia and Rio Grande Do Sul, were designed
and built in the United Kingdom and were based on the Royal Navy`s scout cruisers
of the Adventure-class. They were each named after a Brazilian State.
.P As scout cruisers, these ships were fast and lightly armoured vessels and both
ships exceeded their designed speed in trials.
.P They saw service in the First world War, after which, in the twenties, they
had replacement machinery fitted that further improved their top speed. The ships
remained in service long enough to take an active part in World War II after the
Brazilian declaration of war on Germany in August 1942.
.P During the war the Bahia-class ships were mostly used to escort merchant
vessels in the South Atlantic. The war was almost over when, on the 4th July 1945
Bahia was operating in the South Atlantic. Suddenly there was an internal explosion
and she quickly sank with the loss of 294 officers and crew.
.P Her sister survived the war and was scrapped in 1948.

Might I suggest...

On July 4, 1945 while operating in the South Atlantic the Bahia suffered an internal
explosion causing her to quickly sink with the loss of 294 officers and crew.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: warspite1

2/2

[4310 Bahia - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 18,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 26.5 knots
.B Main armament: 10 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 6 x 3-pdr (47mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 3,100 tons
.B Thickest armour: No belt armour
.P As part of the Brazilian naval expansion program in the early years of the
20th Century (see Minas Gerais and Sao Paulo), the Brazilian Government ordered
two cruisers in 1907.
.P The two ships of the Bahia-class, Bahia and Rio Grande Do Sul, were designed
and built in the United Kingdom and were based on the Royal Navy`s scout cruisers
of the Adventure-class. They were each named after a Brazilian State.
.P As scout cruisers, these ships were fast and lightly armoured vessels and both
ships exceeded their designed speed in trials.
.P They saw service in the First world War, after which, in the twenties, they
had replacement machinery fitted that further improved their top speed. The ships
remained in service long enough to take an active part in World War II after the
Brazilian declaration of war on Germany in August 1942.
.P During the war the Bahia-class ships were mostly used to escort merchant
vessels in the South Atlantic. The war was almost over when, on the 4th July 1945
Bahia was operating in the South Atlantic. Suddenly there was an internal explosion
and she quickly sank with the loss of 294 officers and crew.
.P Her sister survived the war and was scrapped in 1948.

Might I suggest...

On July 4, 1945 while operating in the South Atlantic the Bahia suffered an internal
explosion causing her to quickly sink with the loss of 294 officers and crew.

Warspite1

a) You may suggest, and b) I have amended the file - thanks [:)]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I hope your going to give credit to Wosung and Froonp for providing the links and information on both these ships.

Euh... what credit ?
I don't remember having found something about the Mexican ships, did I ?

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Oh well - looks like ADG got that one wrong - Patrice/Steve - how do you want to play this? Leave as is or amend?

Well, I think we should rename it from Gascoigne to Gascogne.

But it is present in the Missed the Bus, Lebensraum, Waking Giant, Brute Force, Darkness before the Dawn, Decline and Fall scenarios... So I'll leave that to Steve as this may cause bugs.

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The Galissonnière, you are saying it should be spelled La Galissonnière ?
If so, I prefer leaving that change to Steve, as this ship is included in setups, and me changing it would cause errors in all new game creations. Anyway this is not a biggie, as far as Galissonnière is rightly spelled. It is spelled like that Galissonnière, not like that Galissonniere in the datafiles.

The Galissonnière (spelled "La Galissonnière" normaly) is present in the following scenarios :
Facist tide
Missed the bus
Lebensraum
Waking Giant
Brute Force
Darkness before Dawn
Decline and Fall
Global War

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I hope your going to give credit to Wosung and Froonp for providing the links and information on both these ships.

Euh... what credit ?
I don't remember having found something about the Mexican ships, did I ?

Warspite1

Patrice - I think Extraneous was alluding to a thread post from a couple of years ago when Terje? was enquiring about the
Anahuac. There was a response in Spanish that you or someone (Wosung?) were able to shed some light on. The point is, the website that provided the info is mentioned in the bibliography - not you!

That said, I am not happy with one source of info - and although I have sufficient to complete the write-ups, I will be looking for additional sources.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Oh well - looks like ADG got that one wrong - Patrice/Steve - how do you want to play this? Leave as is or amend?

Well, I think we should rename it from Gascoigne to Gascogne.

But it is present in the Missed the Bus, Lebensraum, Waking Giant, Brute Force, Darkness before the Dawn, Decline and Fall scenarios... So I'll leave that to Steve as this may cause bugs.

Warspite 1

If, as you suspect, Steve chooses to leave this (in order not to attract bugs) would you prefer me to amend the master list on the basis that this affects nothing program wise? The only reason for not doing so would be that the write-up and the counter would then be different. I`ll leave as is until you/Steve confirm. Thanks.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The Galissonnière, you are saying it should be spelled La Galissonnière ?
If so, I prefer leaving that change to Steve, as this ship is included in setups, and me changing it would cause errors in all new game creations. Anyway this is not a biggie, as far as Galissonnière is rightly spelled. It is spelled like that Galissonnière, not like that Galissonniere in the datafiles.

The Galissonnière (spelled "La Galissonnière" normaly) is present in the following scenarios :
Facist tide
Missed the bus
Lebensraum
Waking Giant
Brute Force
Darkness before Dawn
Decline and Fall
Global War

Patrice,

Please make these corrections and let me know that is what has changed when you send me the new files. I'll modify the setup code to match. This is no big deal, but it does have to be coordinated.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I hope your going to give credit to Wosung and Froonp for providing the links and information on both these ships.

Euh... what credit ?
I don't remember having found something about the Mexican ships, did I ?

Warspite1

Patrice - I think Extraneous was alluding to a thread post from a couple of years ago when Terje? was enquiring about the
Anahuac. There was a response in Spanish that you or someone (Wosung?) were able to shed some light on. The point is, the website that provided the info is mentioned in the bibliography - not you!

That said, I am not happy with one source of info - and although I have sufficient to complete the write-ups, I will be looking for additional sources.

Well, it is no problem to me if I'm not credited, I'm not a valuable source navywise. I only know that the Essexes and the Iowas rock, that's all [:D]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Please make these corrections and let me know that is what has changed when you send me the new files. I'll modify the setup code to match. This is no big deal, but it does have to be coordinated.

Done.
I'll send you that soon, and also to Robert so that he can change in the writeup file.
Also I found some names for him to correct in the writeups.

In response to Froonp # 1329
 
Renaming the ship to Gascogne is not a problem because the ship was actually planned but never started.
 
[font=arial]There is a problem naming the ship Galissonnière.[/font]

..and back to the Italians. There is a shortage of deployment detail for some of these units (July - December 1940) so any assistance would be appreciated as ever.

[5011 Diaz - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 95,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 36.5 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 6-inch (152mm), 6 x 3.9-inch (100mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 7,080 tons
.B Thickest armour: 1-inch (belt)
.P The first light cruisers built for the Regia Marina (RM) after the First
World War was the Condottieri type. Within this type were six classes or sub
groups. The two-ship Cadorna-class made up the second group.
.P These ships were built for the RM between 1930 and 1933. The first group were
not a very successful design, but a range of improvements were made at the design
stage for the second group. Although the armament and machinery for the second
group was the same as that of the first, the Cadornas proved much more stable and
sea-worthy ships.
.P The main differences were in the detail. Although of the same dimensions as
the first group, the Cadornas had no tumblehome i.e. the sides of the ship were
relatively straight-sided. This had the effect of improving the internal space.
They were fitted with improved versions of the same calibre guns and their
superstructure was less top-heavy.
.P These ships were built with speed in mind, the necessity for speed being that
the class were designed as destroyer killers. However, this came at a cost in
armour protection.
.P Armando Diaz was completed in April 1933, the second of the two Cadornas. Diaz
and the cruisers of the 4th Division were part of the Battle Group, that provided
distant cover for the convoy operation that led to the Battle of Punta Stilo on
the 9th July 1940 (see Giuilo Cesare). The battle proved inconclusive and Diaz
had only a subsidiary role, from which she emerged unscathed.
.P Her role from then was mainly to provide escort for minelaying operations and
this continued until the end of the year, when she was transferred to the
Adriatic. The Italians had set up a special command to organise convoys to
Albania following Mussolini`s decision to invade Greece in October 1940 (see
Transport Counter 5036). After some heavy losses the RM had to strengthen the
initial escort force, and Diaz was one of the reinforcements.
.P At the end of the following month she was sent to Naples with the cruiser
Bande Nere in order to escort an important troop convoy to North Africa. On the
25th February, She was sailing off Kerkennah Island, Tunisia, when she was
torpedoed by the submarine HMS Upright. She sank with the loss of 500 officers
and men.

...an unfortunate Italian heavy cruiser......

[4996 Pola - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 95,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 8-inch (203mm), 16 x 3.9-inch (100mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 14,133 tons
.B Thickest armour: 6-inch (belt)
.P The Zaras were a class of four heavy cruisers that were improved versions
of the preceding Trento-class. The main and secondary armament of this latter
class remained the same as the Trentos, while the improvements took the form of
heavier armour protection.
.P In order to try and keep within the Washington Treaty limits, the armour was
actually reduced in thickness from the original specification, but the class
remained well armoured compared to their contemporaries, even with the reduction.
.P The Zaras were actually just over the weight limit even with the thinner
armour and a cut in top speed of four knots compared to the Trentos, but the
difference was not as blatantly in contavention as some others.
.P The Zaras were a very good all round design that combined, speed, armour and
hitting power in good measure. The loss of three ships early in the war said more
about Regia Marina (RM) operational shortcomings, than it does about problems with
the ships design. The class were named after provinces in the north-east of
Italy.
.P Pola was completed in December 1932. Upon the Italian declaration of war on
the 10th June 1940, the RM began the usual minelaying precautions (see Barbiano).
Two days later, Pola was ordered to sail to search for Royal Navy cruisers that
were bombarding Tobruk. Despite a large search party, no contact was made (see
San Giorgio).
.P Pola and the cruisers of the 1st Cruiser Division provided the distant cover
for the convoy operation that led to the Battle of Punta Stilo (Calabria) on the
9th July (see Giuilo Cesare). The battle proved inconclusive and Pola was not
damaged.
.P She was part of the Italian Fleet for what proved to be perhaps the biggest
missed opportunity for the RM in World War II. The Royal Navy were attempting a
supply operation to Malta, Operation HATS, covered by the Mediterranean Fleet.
The Italian Fleet had an overwhelming superiority in fire-power and ship numbers
but their fleet was recalled to base rather than remain at sea (see Conti Di
Cavour); it was a golden opportunity missed.
.P At the end of September, the British launched a supply and troop reinforcement
operation from Alexandria to Malta, again covered by the Mediterranean Fleet.
Pola was part of the Italian Fleet that sortied briefly, but then returned to
base when spotted by aircraft from the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious.
.P At the end of November, she took part in the inconclusive Battle of Cape
Teulada in which the Italians failed to defeat a weaker Royal Navy force,
although they did cause damage to the heavy cruiser Berwick (see Fiume).
.P On the 14th December, Pola was damaged during a British air raid on Naples,
but she was back in action for what would be the last time three months later.
The Royal Navy were escorting convoys to and from Greece and in response, Admiral
Iachino put to sea in the battleship Vittorio Veneto, accompanied by six heavy
cruisers, Pola, Zara, Fiume, Trieste, Trento and Bolzano; the light cruisers
Abruzzi and Garibaldi and their destroyer escorts.
.P The British deployed a cruiser force under Vice-Admiral Pridham-Wippell that
consisted of Ajax, Gloucester, Orion and HMAS Perth and accompanying destroyers,
ahead of Admiral Cunningham`s heavier units; the carrier Formidable, the
battleships Barham, Valiant and Warspite and their escorting destroyers.
Cunningham`s ships were heading north to rendezvous with the cruisers off Crete.
.P What became the Battle of Cape Matapan began on the morning of the 28th March
1940. Three of the Italian heavy cruisers came upon the British cruiser force and
salvoes were exchanged. After an hour, with little damage done to either side,
Iachino ordered his cruisers to break off, despite their superior armament. When
they did, Pridham-Wippell ordered his fleet to turn around and follow the Italian
ships. Then, when Vittorio Veneto came in range and fired on the British
cruisers, Pridham-Wippell ordered a withdrawal; inviting the Italians to chase
them.
.P By now, with both hunter and hunted sailing toward Cunningham, the British
Admiral ordered aircraft from Formidable to attack. An attack was launched
against Vittorio Veneto but to no effect. Alarmed by this development, Iachino
decided to make for home. A second air strike was launched and this time Vittorio
Veneto was hit, resulting in a damaged propeller. The battleship stopped for
repairs to be carried out and eventually got away at much reduced speed. A third
strike was launched, but this time, the aircraft found Pola. She was badly
damaged in the attack and stopped dead in the water. By now it was late in the
day and Iachino, not thinking the British would pursue at night, sent Pola`s
sister ships Zara and Fiume, together with a destroyer escort, to help the
disabled cruiser.
.P However, Cunningham had been itching for a fight with the Italians since June
and only needed a hint of an opportunity. He decided to pursue the enemy despite
the fact that with every passing minute he was heading further toward Italian
airfields. But fortune favours the brave and so it was to prove on this occasion.
.P The Italian ships, having no radar, were completely unaware of the approaching
battleships. In addition, the crews were not at action stations, despite not
knowing exactly what the Royal Navy had done after the engagement earlier in the
day. Cunningham`s battleships came out of the dark and opened fire, effectively
from point blank range. Within just a few minutes the Zara and Fiume were ablaze
and sank. Two Italian destroyers were also sunk in the one sided action, and a
further one badly damaged. The British considered towing Pola, but the danger of
being caught in the open by Italian aircraft, once the morning came was too big a
risk. After removing her crew, Pola was sunk with torpedoes.
.P The battle had been a disaster for the Italians, costing them five ships and
just over 2,300 officers and men.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
[4307 Minas Gerais - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 23,500 hp
.B Top Speed: 21 knots
.B Main armament: 12 x 12-inch (305mm), 22 x 4.7-inch (120mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 21,200 tons
.B Thickest armour: 9-inch (belt)

ORIGINAL: warspite1
[4310 Bahia - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 18,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 26.5 knots
.B Main armament: 10 x 4.7-inch (120mm), 6 x 3-pdr (47mm) guns
.B Displacement (standard): 3,100 tons
.B Thickest armour: No belt armour

Bahia cruiser :

ORIGINAL: warspite1
[5011 Diaz - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine output: 95,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 36.5 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 6-inch (152mm), 6 x 3.9-inch (100mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 7,080 tons
.B Thickest armour: 1-inch (belt)

Diaz :