Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I vote No. China is worth much more alive then dead, especially later on when they start infiltrating back and Japan is going crazy trying to decide on their action choice.

Okay, the vote is now 1 to 1.

I would like to bring your attention to the surplus NAVs and LND sitting around in the region. They aren't there for convoy protection, obviously. One way or another, China is going to die. The question now is who gets to decide the terms of their destruction.

If there are any targets whatsoever (factories or oil) that the CW can reach without German FTR cover they should strat bomb those every turn until the Germans get the hint. [:)]

When I do finally get my End of Turn report completed, there are going to be some errors in Production choices, I'm sure. The reason for that is that it's very hard to remember all of the suggestions, which ones fit my plans, which ones were rejected by others for good reason, and it's too much of a hassle to try to search back through the pages to find the posts I'm looking for.

Fortunately, I get it free and clear with France and China . . . neither can build anything! With the USA, I've got 10 unexpected BP to work with, so whatever errors occur, they will be less fatal with a 50% boost in production. I pretty much know what I want with Germany and the USSR (MECH all the way), so it's just down to Italy and Japan, really, plus decisions I expect to be distasteful to CW freaks -- but I have my reasons. They may not be good reasons, but I do have them. Production for Italy will probably continue to lean toward TERR units and maybe a few new aircraft (the lend-lease LND-2 comes to mind), but I have to see exactly what is available. Japan is going to have to decide which way to bet -- China to be conquered, or China surrendered.

ORIGINAL: composer99

If there are any targets whatsoever (factories or oil) that the CW can reach without German FTR cover they should strat bomb those every turn until the Germans get the hint. [:)]

The Germans have been very careful about this so ar, and I don't think any of the CW LND have the range to get to anything not currently covered. I'll have to check to see what can be reached using extended range, but only one LND has enough factors to make that even remotely worthwhile, assuming it can get there.

I usually try to build 2-3 LND-4 very early on for this reason, but things got screwed up with a lot of air losses and I ended up with other priorities.

I vote yes. I think it will make for a more interesting game when China surrenders.

I think the US is going to have to follow the historical path of "Europe first". The Russians are going to be in a lot of trouble and can use a "second front" sooner rather than later. This also works out well since the CW got the upper hand on the German fleet and put a bunch of it into the repair yard. The subs will still be an issue, but hopefully that can be dealt with. Even with China out of the picture, this does not change Japan's naval balance. It does mean the Japanese could launch a ground campaign into India, but anything the US did early in the Pacific would have little effect on that until the Japanese navy is dealt with.

The US can have a fairly quick effect in Europe with potential strategic bombing and also teaming up with the CW with a landing. Even if they don't really go anyplace, it will serve as a big distraction for the Germans, which will help the Russians and might make the difference to how effective Russia might be down the road. The Allies are going to be hard pressed to win if the Russians are confined to Sibera.

My 2 cents.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I vote No. China is worth much more alive then dead, especially later on when they start infiltrating back and Japan is going crazy trying to decide on their action choice.

Okay, the vote is now 1 to 1.

I would like to bring your attention to the surplus NAVs and LND sitting around in the region. They aren't there for convoy protection, obviously. One way or another, China is going to die. The question now is who gets to decide the terms of their destruction.

I voted for China to fight on earlier.

Even more so 6 japanese bombers in inland China. If China surrenders they are going to deploy at once to other fronts. Let Japan work for China.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: composer99

If there are any targets whatsoever (factories or oil) that the CW can reach without German FTR cover they should strat bomb those every turn until the Germans get the hint. [:)]

The Germans have been very careful about this so ar, and I don't think any of the CW LND have the range to get to anything not currently covered. I'll have to check to see what can be reached using extended range, but only one LND has enough factors to make that even remotely worthwhile, assuming it can get there.

I usually try to build 2-3 LND-4 very early on for this reason, but things got screwed up with a lot of air losses and I ended up with other priorities.

If Germany cover all factories then begin to bomb one within escort range and bomb that one each impulse. Forcing Germany to rebase more fighters there or let CW bomb unintercepted. Even one point unintercepted can do some damage.

CW has some LND-3 that has decent strat bombing factors.

From now on I suggest CW make 2 or more strat bombings each turn.

ORIGINAL: Rijssiej

I vote yes. I think it will make for a more interesting game when China surrenders.

So far, it's 2-1 in favor of a Chinese Surrender. (just keeping track here)

I ended up deciding to save those last 2 Soviet BP because I really didn't like what I saw for potential spending options. I originally wanted to build a FTR-2, but there are still some unscrappable junk-fighters in the pool. I've got enough of those already. There are some decent LND-2 options, but I'd rather hold on to the BP and either get an extra MIL next turn (if I'm at war) or upgrade from a MOT to an ARM in my next round of builds . . . or something like that.

Similarly, I've decided to take composer99's advice and save a few Japanese BP this turn. If I do the same next turn, I can easily afford the 2nd SynthOil plant the turn after that. So, I'm saving the game now, with 2 BP to place for the Japanese (probably in Hiroshima and Kobe). If I plop them down now, I'll be forced to move on in the Sequence of Play to the Peace step (which includes conquests and surrenders), so I'm going to wait until more votes are in . . . if more votes come in.

I know I promised an end of turn report for this morning, but it's been a very complex situation developing, and I really wanted to hear as many thoughts as possible before making this decision.

Thank you, one and all, for contributing to this discussion. [&o]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: composer99

If there are any targets whatsoever (factories or oil) that the CW can reach without German FTR cover they should strat bomb those every turn until the Germans get the hint. [:)]

The Germans have been very careful about this so ar, and I don't think any of the CW LND have the range to get to anything not currently covered. I'll have to check to see what can be reached using extended range, but only one LND has enough factors to make that even remotely worthwhile, assuming it can get there.

I usually try to build 2-3 LND-4 very early on for this reason, but things got screwed up with a lot of air losses and I ended up with other priorities.

If Germany cover all factories then begin to bomb one within escort range and bomb that one each impulse. Forcing Germany to rebase more fighters there or let CW bomb unintercepted. Even one point unintercepted can do some damage.

CW has some LND-3 that has decent strat bombing factors.

From now on I suggest CW make 2 ore more strat bombings each turn.

The CW only has 3 LND total right now. One more is coming in soon, I think. I just shut the game down, and I forget. Total Strategic Factors = 11 (7/3/1). I do agree that it's time to start raiding a target multiple times. The only problem with that right at the moment is the weather. The only bomber the Germans would bother to intercept is the 7-factor LND. Hell, in much of the last 2 turns, these LND couldn't even fly due to the weather. But I do agree with the intent. I just need better LND and/or better weather to make the Germans take the bait.

Okay, so it is now 2-2 on Chinese Surrender. Orm and Paul vs. composer99 and Rijssiej [:)]

Steve is on record as voting against surrender.

ORIGINAL: composer99

Steve is on record as voting against surrender.

Thanks. I completely forgot that! How could I possibly forget that???[X(]

Okay, the vote is 3-2 against at this moment.

I still haven't completed the end of turn sequence yet, but I've gotten far enough along that I can start cutting and pasting my report together . . . and I was just thinking how strange it is that for a turn during which practically nothing happened, there sure is a lot to talk about, isn't there?

ORIGINAL: Orm

I recommend that China stays in the war a bit longer.

I have to add my agreement here.
I would never surrender China.
While there is life there is hope!!!

With that vote, we are up to 4-2 in favor of keeping the Chinese around a little longer.

I made a save from before this decision, and decided to continue on based on No Surrender, No Retreat for China. [:)] Let me tell you, with all of the possible outcomes for Initiative rolls and weather, I've never had so much trouble trying to decide where to place a single INF unit for the Soviets. I have to take into account where the Reserves will show up, what can happen if Germany gets 1st impulse and good weather, and what can happen if it doesn't get either, or only one of the two.

I finally settled on trusting my Reserves to take care of business. You'll see it in my end of turn report.

Update . . . isn't the suspense killing you? . . . I've made it all the way through to the Initiative roll, and the Axis finally got "lucky" (sort of), winning the Initiative on a 7-7 tie. I am going to take the advice of several here and not force a re-roll, and I am also going to have the Axis bite the bullet and take the first impulse. My reasoning is that I could get lucky with the weather, and that even if I give it to the Allies, there's only a 50/50 chance of gaining back ground on the Initiative track. If I take the first impulse, there's nothing to lose at all, since the Allies are already at +2.

End of Turn Report coming soon to a thread near you!

First, I'll post the J/F '41 chit Summary:

End of Turn:
USA drew 1 marker to the Ja Entry Pool (8491 [4])
USA chooses to Pass War Appropriations Bill (All); USE-4 (1 chit moved, 2 of 10 [1]) Ge/It

Ge/It Entry: 33
Ge/It Tension: 23
Chance of DOW: 20%
Japan Entry: 35
Japan Tension: 21
Chance of DOW: 40%
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And, though I usually post what the world looks like in my End of Turn Report, I have reasons for posting it here instead. So, at the beginning of March, 1941, here is what the world looks like:

And here it is, at long last, my End of Turn Report for J/F '41:

Partisans
No Partisans

Entry Markers
USSR placed 1 marker on Defense (557 [3])
Germany placed 2 markers on Offense (184 [1], 389 [2])

US Entry
USA drew 1 marker to the Ja Entry Pool (8491 [4])
USA chooses to Pass War Appropriations Bill (All); USE-4 (1 chit moved, 2 of 10 [1]) Ge/It

Ge/It Entry: 33
Ge/It Tension: 23
Chance of DOW: 20%
Japan Entry: 35
Japan Tension: 21
Chance of DOW: 40%

Pre-Build Scrapping
Italy scrapped 1 x LND-2

Builds:
China (0): Nothing
CW (25): 1 x MIL, 1 x GARR, 2 x FTR-3, 2 x CP, 1 x AMPH(2nd), 2 x TRS(2nd), 2 x Pilot
France (0): Nothing
USA (30): 1 x HQ-I, 1 x GARR, 1 x MECH Division, 5 x CV(1st), 1 x SUB(1st), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x NAV-3, 2 x Pilot
USSR (17): 1 x INF, 1 x HQ-I, 1 x GARR, 1 x MECH, Saved 2 BP in Gorki and Saratov
Germany (27): 2 x INF, 1 x HQ-A, 1 x GARR, 1 x MECH, 2 x SUB(1st), 1 x FTR-2, 1 x Pilot
Italy (13): 1 x HQ-I, 2 x TERR, 1 x LND-2, 1 x SUB(Repair), 1 x SUB(2nd)
Japan (15): 1 x HQ-I, 1 x CVP-0, 2 x TRS(2nd), Saved 2 BP in Hiroshima and Kobe

M/A '41 Gearing Limits (above 1):
China: None
CW: 3 x Infantry, 5 x Ship, 3 x Air, 3 x Pilot
France: None
USA: 3 x Infantry, 2 x Armor, 6 x Ship, 2 x Submarine, 4 x Air, 3 x Pilot
USSR: 4 x Infantry, 2 x Armor
Germany: 4 x Infantry, 3 x Armor, 3 x Submarine, 2 x Air, 2 x Pilot
Italy: 4 x Infantry, 3 x Submarine, 2 x Air
Japan: 2 x Infantry, 3 x Ship, 2 x Air

Conquest:
China Declined to Surrender to Japan

Factory Destruction:
None

Reinforcements:
China places CAV Division in Kunming
CW places MIL in Bombay, INF in Dacca and Cape Town, CL in Plymouth, 2 TRS in Bristol
CW removes FTR from map (Hurricane in Hull)
USA assigns Pilot to NAV
USA plsces NAV in Boston, AMPH in Norfolk
USA removes CVP from map (LA)
USSR places MECH and INF in Gomel
USSR removes 3 FTR from map (Leningrad, Gomel)
Germany assigns Pilot to CVP
Germany places CVP on CV in Kiel, 2 MECH in Konigsberg
Italy assigns Pilot to LND
Italy places TERR in Beirut and Jerusalem, BB and SUB in La Spezia, LND in Taranto
Japan assigns Pilot to CVP
Japan places CVP, TRS, SUB, 2 INF in Tokyo, INF in Fukuoka

Trade Agreements:
No Changes

Victory Totals
Axis: 33
Allies: 34

Initiative:
Axis wins the Initiative 7-7 (no Re-Roll)
Axis chooses to move first in M/A '41

Turn 10 M/A '41

Axis wins the Initiative 7-7 (no Re-Roll)
Axis chooses to move first in M/A '41
+2 Allied Initiative

Impulse: 1
Weather: 8



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Given the weather roll, perhaps the Allies should have tried for the 1st impulse after all. The Soviets just ran out of time. The roll of '8' isn't ideal for the Axis, since it means the impulses will advance by 2, but it was just enough to put the S. Monsoon Zone into Fine weather, which now has only a 30% chance to last. It's a very brief window of opportunity:

I know the Japanese are supposed to wait until they are ready to deal with the USA before using their O-chit, but I think a Super-Combined is called for here. Japan doesn't have ideal forces in place, but it can launch 6 invasions with 2 INF Divisions, 2 MAR Divisions, and 2 INF Corps. It can also transport a white-print INF to Truk, take Hanoi (with a DOW on France), make an attempt to eliminate Kunming (at low odds) before another unit moves back into it, set up its sea defenses, take Malaya (except for Singapore), and even try to snap the Pacific convoy pipeline . . . oh, and did I mention that it can begin moving into Siberia, too?

This means I should be able to take most of the Oil from the NEI, take Batavia, Rabual, and some other targets, too.

In the meantime, Germany can get get some ground Strikes in on those stacks near Chisinau that won't have a chance to move, trapping them, move up and attack in the North (possibly with Ground Support), and really piss off the Soviets. I won't get a chance to make that surprise invasion, and the Arctic rain will prevent my ski troops from cutting the rail line to Murmansk, but I still think it's a little risky for the USSR to rail its factories there. Archangel is probably still the better choice, although there are now TRS that can move HQ-I Alexander (CW) and another unit to Murmansk to help hold the factories if the Soviets want to go that route. It'll depend on how creative I am with Germany, really.

As for Italy, well, it's probably going to have to take a few Land Actions to get the HQs set up for the German attempt against Persia. It won't get into the war yet, though there's nothing stopping the USSR from making the DOW next impulse. This might gain the Soviets a mountain hex or two in Iraq, but they can't reach Mosul or Baghdad before the Germans are in a position to defend them. Also, with the addition of the TERR units in Syria and Palestine, the Italians have a solid land force to mount a defensive screen near Cairo and the Suez while the majority of the better land units head off to Iraq.

Expect to see a ton of DOWs coming up in this first impulse, with the USA feeling very much left out of the fun. [X(]

This is the best I can do to give you as complete an overview of the threat to the USSR as possible:
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Edit: Of course, this will change a bit when the Soviets place their Reserves.

Steve, if you're still awake, I'm trying to look back through the pages for the recommendations you made about reserves placement, but I haven't found them yet . . . would you mind repeating them? If you are [>:] I'll eventually find them, so no worries.

Should be an interesting/exciting turn ahead.
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Edit: Nevermind. Finally found it. [:)]