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Made the right decision this time and waited for the demo after the mess called TOW(Still have shrink wrapped copy if anyones interested).  They have completely moved from a wargame to a RT mess.  In the two missions/scenarios in the demo it becomes pretty obvious that there really is no AI to speak of. 

First Mission/Scenario (Training) you have a trench full of Syrian's facing off against four strykers and there infantry.  Well if you select to play the Syrians the game informs you that they weren't meant to be played.  That gave me a bad feeling to begin with.  When the scenario starts off the strykers just sit some distance away and never move.  I guess they had no scripted moves to perform.  I then restarted this same scenario, but this time took the other side.  I moved my strykers across the open ground and just gunned the fools in the trenches to pieces.  Never even had the infantry dismount.

Second Mission/Scenario you have a mixed bag of Syrian infantry and armour assets facing off against 4 M1A1's and 4 strykers with their infantry.  I decided to see if the scripted pathing could be used against itself.  I took the side of the Syrians and told everyone to hide in the buildings in the little town and positioned my 4 T-80's on the reverse shide of a hill over looking these buildings.  I shortly recieved even more T-80's as reinforcements.  As soon as the battle started pre scripted artillery fell in open ground were some of my men started the mission, but I had moved them in the setup.  Next just as I believed the scripted paths of the strykers and the M1's brought them into full view of my 10-12 T-80's on the hill.  What followed wasn't pretty. The computer just sat there taking a pounding until they were completely eliminated.  No poping of smoke and reverse out of the killing zone heck no reversing out at all.  If it hadn't been for the thick hides of the M1's I would have destroyed the whole force without a single loss.  It was pretty amazing to watch the 4 M1's fight for their life against obsolete Syrian armour.

It's just so obvious that there is really no AI per say.  This may be fine for two RT fans playing H2H with no intention of ever playing against the AI, but I expected more from what was being called CMX2.  In my opinion it's more like CMX.5

Its funny to hear people complain about the AI in CM:SF. Did you all not noitce the AI in the CMx1 games?
 
With all the CMx1 games, as a rule, I never played against the AI if they had to move. So, I would only play against the AI if they were defending. Every once and awhile, I would feel like messing around and play an assault or probe QB with me defending. I would buy a bunch of random stuff and just wait. Every single time the AI would march all of his units in a big massive glob of men. They would all take the exact same path, MG's and mortar's would be hiking with everyone else. I would let them get really close and then have all my units shoot into this collective AI mass. Im sure you can imagine the results.
 
The only way to get the AI to work w/ CMx1 games was a very carefull placement of objective flags. You could then sometimes coax them into going a certain direction.
 
So its really funny to listen to people whine ([:)]) . . . I mean, comment on the AI in CM:SF like it took a big step backwards. And they sound surprised when the AI does not hold up against an experienced player.
 
With CMx1 games, and now with CM:SF, I still stand that they are only fully enjoyed when played against a human opponent. The AI in all CM games does not make for fun playing after your first few games IMHO.
 
Anways, back to playing and enjoying immensely CM:SF. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
 
Chad

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Its funny to hear people complain about the AI in CM:SF. Did you all not noitce the AI in the CMx1 games?

With all the CMx1 games, as a rule, I never played against the AI if they had to move. So, I would only play against the AI if they were defending. Every once and awhile, I would feel like messing around and play an assault or probe QB with me defending. I would buy a bunch of random stuff and just wait. Every single time the AI would march all of his units in a big massive glob of men. They would all take the exact same path, MG's and mortar's would be hiking with everyone else. I would let them get really close and then have all my units shoot into this collective AI mass. Im sure you can imagine the results.

The only way to get the AI to work w/ CMx1 games was a very carefull placement of objective flags. You could then sometimes coax them into going a certain direction.

So its really funny to listen to people whine ([:)]) . . . I mean, comment on the AI in CM:SF like it took a big step backwards. And they sound surprised when the AI does not hold up against an experienced player.

With CMx1 games, and now with CM:SF, I still stand that they are only fully enjoyed when played against a human opponent. The AI in all CM games does not make for fun playing after your first few games IMHO.

Anways, back to playing and enjoying immensely CM:SF. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Chad

Among CMx1 fans, there are two clearly discernible schools of thought regarding the game's AI:

1) I can beat it pretty consistently, so it must be great!

2) The game is really meant to be played MP, so the attributes of the AI are largely irrelevant.

The AI in the game(s) is a TOTAL joke, particularly on the offense. Were it not so, I wouldn't be able to sit down in front of the monitor and stomp the living **** out of it with such ease.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Its funny to hear people complain about the AI in CM:SF. Did you all not noitce the AI in the CMx1 games?

Maybe because as well as the graphics, people expect the AI to be better than the original?

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Its funny to hear people complain about the AI in CM:SF. Did you all not noitce the AI in the CMx1 games?

With all the CMx1 games, as a rule, I never played against the AI if they had to move. So, I would only play against the AI if they were defending. Every once and awhile, I would feel like messing around and play an assault or probe QB with me defending. I would buy a bunch of random stuff and just wait. Every single time the AI would march all of his units in a big massive glob of men. They would all take the exact same path, MG's and mortar's would be hiking with everyone else. I would let them get really close and then have all my units shoot into this collective AI mass. Im sure you can imagine the results.

The only way to get the AI to work w/ CMx1 games was a very carefull placement of objective flags. You could then sometimes coax them into going a certain direction.

So its really funny to listen to people whine ([:)]) . . . I mean, comment on the AI in CM:SF like it took a big step backwards. And they sound surprised when the AI does not hold up against an experienced player.

With CMx1 games, and now with CM:SF, I still stand that they are only fully enjoyed when played against a human opponent. The AI in all CM games does not make for fun playing after your first few games IMHO.

Anways, back to playing and enjoying immensely CM:SF. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Chad

Well that's not true Chad and you obviously didn't play 100's of games vs the AI as I did in all types of setups and amounts. The AI can and does play a good moving game, just not EVERY game. It always depends on the objectives and where they are placed and how spread out they are. I found in games that had 5 plus objective flags that the games were quite fun and challenging, but, with 4 or less and the AI did as you said and conglomerated to one or two flags in order. So, what I did was just not play the 4 or less flag quick battles and just reloaded until I got 5 flags or better. Great games, great fun against the AI and setting up 25 to 30 turns max turned into some nail biting missions vs the ai in meeting and even ai assault battles. You can't just play 1 or 2 games or even 10 and call the ai lame. I find most people do this with all games. Some games yes you can determine if the ai is lame in just a few games or battles (RTW comes to mind), but, with CMx1 series you really had to play literally at least 100 battles and you could see the ai did play some good battles while it was moving. Give it a try, setup a 5000pt quick battle give the AI a +2 handicap and +10% more units and veteran units to your medium quality units and you'll see what I'm talking about. Setup a Meeting Engagement or AI Assault and watch how it will pulverize you. hehe Yeah Yeah I know you're gonna whine about handicapping the ai, but, that's why those are included in the setup, to create an AI that is challenging. No one is going to make a smart AI, so, it's always been handicaps and advantages in the numbers and it's not cheating, lookup cheating, the AI can't cheat because it doesn't know how to cheat or what cheating is. It meraly just uses numerical values YOU give to it to play against you with, so, how can that be cheating?

CMx1's AI isn't the smartest, but, it can be made to be challenging and fun to play against, even moreso than many human pbem players I've played against. So, to say a human is BETTER than a computer AI is wrong and incorrect. Only someone who is an exerienced veteran is better, not everyone that plays CM series. Plus when you play against the AI you know what handicaps and advantages it is getting, when you play a human opponent you can't be sure what he's doing during his/her turn to give themselves an advantage and handicap you don't even know about. Humans cheat behind your back, at least you always know what the computer AI is doing.

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

With CMx1 games, and now with CM:SF, I still stand that they are only fully enjoyed when played against a human opponent.

Which would be a reasonable argument if BF hadn't seemingly gone out of its way to stop people doing just that. Except as what Ravinhood would call a "kiddie click fest", anyway. No TCP/IP WEGO and PBEM swap files so big that a great many people's mail servers won't handle them (haven't tried yet, but the 14 meg figures I've seen floating about are way too big for mine). Having finally taken the plunge (I ended up getting it from BF for the 'proper manual') it's obvious that WEGO is dying, if not dead. I'm surprised you are playing it against the AI; with pausable real-time it is totally pointless, except for nostalgia value.

As to the game, the potential of the system is truly awesome, and may well be the (long-term) future IMHO. For everything 'wrong' and poorly implemented (of which there is much - this is beta code even post 1.01) there is stuff that just leaves you watching gob-smacked. The way urban combat is handled is absolutely superb.. I'd pre-order 'Stalingrad' with this engine if they announced it tomorrow. In pausible real time (the only way to play) against the AI it's a very enjoyable and exciting game now, and maybe I'm just crap at it but the AI seems to rather better than many reports on it suggest. The editor is superb, which, considering quick battles are totally broken, is just as well.

BF's biggest mistake was calling Strike Force "Combat Mission" at all.. they should have bitten the bullet two years ago and just announced a new series as 'the future' and dumped WEGO completely. I very much doubt it will be in the next title. The programming effort should have gone on stuff that would have made what CMSF actually is , rather than many existing CM fans wanted it to be, a truly exceptional product. First on my list would have been the way I'm sure this series will end up being played the most after the next release - co-operative multiplayer. One player a side, without the ability to pause it's a click-fest, but with several a side with force sizes that are easily managable you would have one hell of an MP wargame. Throw in a decent command set-up, preferably with a seperate command role and the usual voice comms (available only when they should be) and many would play nothing else.

In short, a ground-breaking pausable RT game. Or will be once it's anywhere near finished. WEGO lives - but in the Panzer Command series, not CM.

I have to laugh sometimes as I see developers lose their minds and go in completely different directions from games that were successes. We can start with the Total War series its first two games. STW/MTW then to the kiddy clickfest game of RTW with no ai at all really, to somewhat better M2TW still very close to kiddy clickfest, but, improved from the last. Then Triumph studios who did AOW, then AOWII and AOW:SM only to jump tracks and do something totally silly called OVERLORDS or something like that which is a kiddy clickfest action rpg game and not a strategy fantasy wargame. Now BF who first introduced it's changes with that awful game TOW, and now it's sister game CM:SF which was suppose to be better and improved CMX series and yet, it totally off the beaten path and totally a let down for many of the series fans. All 3 developers attempted to get on the RTS train and only 1 I think made it mainly due to it's graphics draw and the period more than any of the others. RTW/M2TW series. MOO III was a failure and those developers went under and got the "get a new job" cut scene. HOMM IV was a failure and 3DO is no mo joe. I just don't understand getting off track with what has worked and sold well. CMBO/CMBB/CMAK did sell well didn't they? Or did they? Were they failure under our own loving eyes? I don't think so, I think the developers and publisher BF got "greedy" just like all the rest of them do. Who knows what lies down the path of change, but, welp, too much change in another direction is just going to leave bad tastes in many of the previous fans mouths. But, STEVE at BF has that "I don't giveadamn" attitude when it comes to fans as you can see from his posts. They are going to do what STEVE wants, (like some temper tantrum crybaby) and not giveasquat about what the fans think, do or say. Maybe when he has to stand in the bread and cheese line at some salvation army's facilty he'll think differently. Time will tell, but, I'm not buying anymore BF products, at least not until waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy down the process, patching line of things. It's just silly stupid and moronic to buy these games upon release when we all know 100% certain now that they are all going to be buggy, have flaws, cause CTDS and are basically unfinished and just want to use US as the beta testers and charge us for it. It's time to take a stand...who's with me?

I didn't know it was pausible. Being as WEGO simply doesn't work without wasting valuable time due to having to give one order at a time, I might give pausible RTS a go.

Hertston...I agree. They should've left the Combat Mission tag off. They probably wanted to have the link to help sell it...as it was, it had (imo) a big ask to meet and the fact it didn't do so makes itall the more gauling for true fans of the games series

Edited to remove my little dig at rh. [:'(]

In my limited time on forums, I have had a general rule of thumb: dont post in the general discussion forums [:)]

I thought I would make an exception with these forums, and I have once again learned my lesson. I had been putting together responses to the above posts and came to the realization that it was a waste of my time to do so. They are obviously some very strong, very negative opinions of CM:SF, and thats just fine. I am not going to spend more time trying to understand those very stong, very negative opinions.

I did as I promised. I played CM:SF and posted my views on it, warts and all. There are plenty of rough edges to the game, thers no doubt about that. Pathfinding, graphical glitches, odd LOS issues, playblance issues, and QB's need some additional work, among other things. The same way the CM:BO demo was all those years ago.

However, I am still having a blast playing it. All the old timer CM players that I keep in touch with all are having a blast playing it. Even with the large PBEM file sizes (which they warned us about), my game time for months and years to come with revolve around my WitP and CMx2 PBEM games.

A final thought and a funny comparision, there are about 16 or so unique people on the CM dev team, not including a handfull of beta testers and a few translators. The fact that so few people can put out a game this good is why BF remains to this day, my most trusted dev team.

Anyone who wants to give PBEM a whirl, drop me an email or IM.

Chad

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I didn't know it was pausible.

Except, currently, in 'elite' mode... the next patch will supposedly allow it there as well. I find it unplayable without pausing except for the scenarios with very small force sizes. 'Too old, too slow', I guess. [:(]

Chad

I understand your sentiments. As a developer, it's an uphill struggle at best and a damn pita trying to get users to do things "a new way". People don't generally take too well to change.

I've just played it on RTS and though I do pause alot, it's very playable. Just played the first campaign mission and it was a blast. Alot of units, artillery kicking off, Syrian tank reinforcements turning up and catching my Strykers out in the open....

I do hope they re-introduce the stacking commands again, so I can play WEGO...that system, for me, was a godsend. In between RTS and turn based, I thought it ingenius, but it's broke in SF.

The game is very playable in RTS though, but you do need to pause. Not really much difference between pausing on your own and having the game do it automatically every 60 seconds...except doing it on your own you have more control....although you do have to keep your eyes open on your troops more

Chad,

I'm not defending one game or the other, but the problem is the fact that Shock Force's AI is completely scripted. Which really means that no AI is present. I bought TOW without knowing (should have tried demo) that the AI is nothing more than scripting moves. That really kills replayability and any surprise of having units show up from no where.

I like to design my own what-if scenarios to play out, but with needing to script the AI's moves I dont think that will be much fun. Unless you enjoy setting up ambushes every game.

I'm quite enjoying Shock Force. Its great fun. The pathfinding is a touch annoying but when you puzzle out the level its enormously satisfying. And the RTS mode is brilliant.

Bugger

Played again in RTS mode and realised you cannot give orders on pause...which kind of negates the use of the pause (almost).

Oh well....back to waiting for a patch to fix order stacking so I can play WEGO...or allow you to issue orders when pause.

Shame, 'cos it was fun in RTS - just not very playable without being able to pause.

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Played again in RTS mode and realised you cannot give orders on pause...

Yes you can. Just not in 'Elite' mode, and they are changing that in 1.02.

Excellent news...thx Hertston (now I've seen you post this, I remember someone else (you?) posting it earlier in this thread.

Just came to mind say that there have been in recent history plenty of wars that would have qualified for historical game of modern combat: Gulf Wars, Afghanistan and wars of former Yugoslavia just to name few. Has anyone asked from devs why they picked fictional Syrian war instead one of those?

Well, any Afghan conflict isn't really going to involve much in the way of armored combat. And if you go with ex-Yugoslav nations, who do you go with?

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

And if you go with ex-Yugoslav nations, who do you go with?

NATO. Or... who the Hell was it... Mihailcovich or something like that.

[edit]
Yeah, NATO vs Mihailcovich... or something like that.

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

And if you go with ex-Yugoslav nations, who do you go with?

NATO. Or... who the Hell was it... Mihailcovich or something like that.

[edit]
Yeah, NATO vs Mihailcovich... or something like that.

I believe you're thinking of Milosevic?