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ORIGINAL: Terminus

Historically, Thailand invaded French Indochina in late 1940, to exploit the perceived weakness of Vichy and conquer what the Thais thought of as their territory. The war was quite short and while it ended in stalemate militarily, a Japanese-brokered ceasefire agreement achieved the Thai political objectives.

In my timeline, there is no Vichy government and therefore the French hold on Indochina is not nearly as tenuous, keeping the Thais from going to war. Instead, the Thai government seeks closer ties with the Japanese, biding its time.

In December 1941, the Japanese have persuaded the Thais to assist them in their conquest of the SRA by contributing a large part of its armed forces for the attack on Indochina. Their reward will be control of the disputed territories in French Indochina.

Both Royal Thai Army, Air Force (re-equipped by the IJAAF to avoid "incidents") and Navy will be present in my mod.

With your timeline... one of the big deciding factors with British actions in northern Malaya was Thai neutrality. The British did not want to violate this neutrality so delayed in issuing orders for the forces in northern Malaya to advance to the 'Ledge' position. IIRC (don't have my sources readily at hand) the 'Ledge' was a serious escarpment roughly 30-50 miles within Thai territory. Had the British opted to advance 24-36 hours sooner, instead of waffling, perhaps the outcome of the campaign may have been altered in a significant fashion.

From your description above it sounds like the Thai's have firmly cast there lot with the Japanese. With that in mind will Allied dispositions in northern Malaya be altered to reflect a greater willingness for the British to advance to the 'Ledge' position? This representation could be by pre-positioning British units in Thailand just west of Patani and giving the units in Alor Star a higher fort level.

I have considered this, and will continue to, but I've also not yet decided how many additional forces are available to the British. It's highly speculative how effective the forces historically in Malaya would have been, even if the British had executed their Matador plan and gone with the pre-emptive strike. Also, such a scheme could still be undermined by Jap landing along the eastern coast of Malaya.

The excelent now dead website LaRoyale have better data about submarine chasers and others. Via archive.org : http://web.archive.org/web/200107100610 ... 01-117.htm

32t coal (my data 24t above is from an old Jane's)

1-2 canon(s) de 75 mm
1-2 mitrailleuse(s)de 8 mm
8 Depth Charges of 75kg
a "1 torpille type Pinocchio" this is a probable mistake for a Ginnochio towed anti-submarine Torpedo.

Here is the top link for auxiliaries:
http://web.archive.org/web/200202081647 ... /FAX39.htm

Did the French have a Naval Infantry force? I know that historically some ship crews were formed into battalions in the army after they lost their ships, but was there anything permanent?

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Did the French have a Naval Infantry force? I know that historically some ship crews were formed into battalions in the army after they lost their ships, but was there anything permanent?

Yes, there were at least two naval infantry regiments (1er and 2e régiment de fusilier marins; RFM) in existence during WW2. 1er RFM was formed from 1er Bataillon de fusiliers marins (1er BFM) in 1943, don't know about 2e RFM. If I remember correctly, 1er BFM was formed in 1940 (as a Free French unit) in the UK because the original 1er BFM had remained under Vichy control (a brigade of fusiliers marins had fought in WWI).

A Batalion de Infanterie de Marine was in Allied side since late 40 in MiddleEast, North African Theatre.

ORIGINAL: Dili

A Batalion de Infanterie de Marine was in Allied side since late 40 in MiddleEast, North African Theatre.

1er BFM

I have BIM but it came from an English text.


Edit: http://www.france-libre.net/1ere-dfl/un ... 44a345098e

It's BIM but it appears to be an ad-hoc unit.

ORIGINAL: Dili

I have BIM but it came from an English text.

I've seen/read both designations (BIM and BFM) for the same battalion even in French texts about the campaign in North Africa (Bir Hakeim etc.).

Don't know which term is correct here, because the term infanterie de marine applies to French navy units that were employed overseas (then as part of the Troupes Coloniales) while the term fusiliers marins applied to navy units that were employed in France proper.

All infanterie de marine troops were named colonial infantery, in France and overseas until the 60's i think. Their insignia was an anchor.

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Dili

I have BIM but it came from an English text.

I've seen/read both designations (BIM and BFM) for the same battalion even in French texts about the campaign in North Africa (Bir Hakeim etc.).

Don't know which term is correct here, because the term infanterie de marine applies to French navy units that were employed overseas (then as part of the Troupes Coloniales) while the term fusiliers marins applied to navy units that were employed in France proper.

Thanks for the link, Dili. This sheds some light on this. Two different battalions (BIM and BFM) at Bir Hakeim. Never realized this before because I did not know that the BIM was merged with the Pacific Battalion later.

ORIGINAL: Skyland

All infanterie de marine troops were named colonial infantery, in France and overseas until the 60's i think. Their insignia was an anchor.

Where they controlled by the Army or the Navy?

By the army at that time.

If you are looking for Navy units, Fusiliers Marins free french units like BIM or BFM as mentionned above are a possibility.

This is very confusing...[&:] What's the difference between fusiliers marins and infanterie de marine?

As far as I can see, the latter would be naval infantry raised for colonial service, but this would only be applicable in peacetime, and since Metropolitan France is occupied by Germany, fusiliers marins could easily have ended up in Indochina. Perhaps as a demi-brigade d'infanterie de marine?

(In case nobody noticed, I like the concept of the demi-brigade...[:D])

From what i understand : fusiliers marins could only be small units (commandos like) because composed of navy personnel assigned to a ship (security, landing parties,...). During the ww2, as many ships were out of service (following Armistice, Toulon scuttling and so on), some larger units were raised with free french navy personnel available in UK and later from '44 with former Vichy navy personnel.

Apparently Fusiliers Marins were the troops that remained under Navy Command at start of WWII - Base security etc. But after 1940 everything was up in air and without a big Navy like in 1939 Fusiliers operated under FFL more or less unified command. Infanterie de Marine were "transformed" into colonial units before WW2, some retained the Marine name like the BIMP - Bataillon d'Infanterie de Marine du Pacifique, and the BIM i refered above formed in War.

There was a Regiment Fusiliers Marins in Italian Campaign operating as Army troops.

Terminus have you found any good websites with info on the disposition of Free French forces in 1941? I've found a few, but their OOB is hard to find accurate records on.

Hard, to say the least. The answer is mostly no, but then I'm in the fortunate position of making an alternate history mod, so I can more or less do what I find best.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Hard, to say the least. The answer is mostly no, but then I'm in the fortunate position of making an alternate history mod, so I can more or less do what I find best.

It is nice that way. And while I'm doing a fictional mod as well, I'm also trying to keep some of the OOB intact while adding to it. I still haven't decided if I'm going to have the French Colonies go Free French or explore the possibilities of them being loyal to the Vichy.