Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Realistically the encirclers would be more confused than the encircled. The encircled just have to get out, the encirclers have to go deep into enemy territory, strung with transport along winding routes at top speed, get to some unknown location in some time frame, find all the other encirclers, stay suppplied and in contact with their own forces and be prepared to react to threats from any direction. The encircled just have to stay out of contact and get away through familiar territory.

I don't follow the logic here, the encirclers have the initiative, they know the event is about to take place, they may have been planning and briefing for days, they have a plan, they know where they are required to go, through recon they may already know where the opposition is. The defenders have few of these advantages, they have to react to events, at short notice, driven by a plan that they don't know the details off (with exception of events such as Kursk).

Except that with IGOUGO, the defender seems to get to see the opposition plan fully unfold, then gets a chance to react to it, therefore I still think that there needs to be some penalty to reflect the realistic situation of defenders reacting to events as they happen and not after they have happened. In reality some units would flee through any gaps, but some would blunder into encircling units and be forced to try to fight their way out.

It is early days and I would not want to prejudge the issue, but the event under discussion does seem odd. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Realistically the encirclers would be more confused than the encircled. The encircled just have to get out, the encirclers have to go deep into enemy territory, strung with transport along winding routes at top speed, get to some unknown location in some time frame, find all the other encirclers, stay suppplied and in contact with their own forces and be prepared to react to threats from any direction. The encircled just have to stay out of contact and get away through familiar territory.

I don't follow the logic here, the encirclers have the initiative, they know the event is about to take place, they may have been planning and briefing for days, they have a plan, they know where they are required to go, through recon they may already know where the opposition is. The defenders have few of these advantages, they have to react to events, at short notice, driven by a plan that they don't know the details off (with exception of events such as Kursk).

Except that with IGOUGO, the defender seems to get to see the opposition plan fully unfold, then gets a chance to react to it, therefore I still think that there needs to be some penalty to reflect the realistic situation of defenders reacting to events as they happen and not after they have happened. In reality some units would flee through any gaps, but some would blunder into encircling units and be forced to try to fight their way out.

It is early days and I would not want to prejudge the issue, but the event under discussion does seem odd. [:)]

The event seems odd, but about the game mechanics of encirclement, there may be more logic to letting encircled forces escape if there is any doubt at all about the completeness of the encirclement. For example, a 10-mile gap in an encirclement is not just a little cosmetic issue, it suggests the whole encirclement plan and execution has a lot of problems. If the encirclers had all this planning and if they know where they are going, then why the gap? Clearly the plan wasn't quite working as planned and who can tell what else might have been way off. Maybe there was no plan. Maybe the encirclers have no idea they are encircling anything. Maybe the timing was off for much longer than it seems and maybe all of that adds up to a lot of escape routes for the encircled. Remember, the encircled don't need a plan and are withdrawing along their supply routes and could well have much better communications than the encirclers. They just have to get out fast.

I agree some kind of penalties would be reasonable for these fast escapes and I've seen signs of such things in my own troops when they escaped from seemingly impossible situations (though I could have been misreading that since they had been through some nasty fighting). Perhaps extra booty (trucks? supplies? APs?) and morale for the encirclers.

I am playing the GC and finally took Smolensk on turn 15. Thats one thing I love about this game-taking Smolensk was game unto its self. Now on to Moscow. Reading and learning the game as I go. You can feel the difference of each campaign area in the game-North-Center-and south. So FSP don't lose faith. I am struggling myself....But thats whats great about it....Now back to Moscow[;)][:D][:(]

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Maybe there was no plan. Maybe the encirclers have no idea they are encircling anything. Maybe the timing was off for much longer than it seems and maybe all of that adds up to a lot of escape routes for the encircled. Remember, the encircled don't need a plan and are withdrawing along their supply routes and could well have much better communications than the encirclers. They just have to get out fast.

The Germans did not launch over 3 million men and 1000s of tanks into Russia without a plan, from Hitler Directives, through Armee Group, Panzer Group, Armee, Korps, Division, Luftwaffe, Artillery, etc, etc, there were detailed plans. The whole ethos of Blitzkrieg is the encircling movement by combined armoured, infantry and air forces and they know there are Russian forces they wish to encircle.

Either way, in the chaos of these gigantic battles, huges forces, many on foot, cannot simply disappear from the main combat area at will, whilst a highly competent mobile force doesn't see them go.

I don't say the no Russians can escape the pocket (we know that huge numbers did), I am just suprised that, in the example given, no Soviet units had to fight to escape, they all seemed to be able to swiftly march out of danger, along safe routes, evading any contact with enemy units.

I repeat, I don't want to prejudge the Campaign that I have not played yet (the testers have played 1000s of hours, we haven't) and I am aware of the potential effects of IgoUgo turn system, but it just doesn't feel right and I suggest that there are ways to modify the parameters, to reflect the advantages of the initiative the attacker holds. [:)]

Maybe they got railed out of the pocket???

ORIGINAL: Offworlder
Maybe they got railed out of the pocket???

Yeah, all Russian units would be season ticket holders, probably reduced rates for groups.

It doesn't matter how they travelled, it is inconceivable that they all knew, in advance, which was the safe way to go and that, at the last moment, such a huge movement of forces could be accomplished. I emphasis again, some units may have got clean away, but surely some of them would have encountered enemy units and had to attempt to fight there way out.

A pure interpretation of IGOUGO seems to be giving a 'Get out of jail free' card, there should be some additional effects, to reflect that the the attacker will have moved, before the defender can fully react. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
Maybe there was no plan. Maybe the encirclers have no idea they are encircling anything. Maybe the timing was off for much longer than it seems and maybe all of that adds up to a lot of escape routes for the encircled. Remember, the encircled don't need a plan and are withdrawing along their supply routes and could well have much better communications than the encirclers. They just have to get out fast.

The Germans did not launch over 3 million men and 1000s of tanks into Russia without a plan, from Hitler Directives, through Armee Group, Panzer Group, Armee, Korps, Division, Luftwaffe, Artillery, etc, etc, there were detailed plans. The whole ethos of Blitzkrieg is the encircling movement by combined armoured, infantry and air forces and they know there are Russian forces they wish to encircle.

Either way, in the chaos of these gigantic battles, huges forces, many on foot, cannot simply disappear from the main combat area at will, whilst a highly competent mobile force doesn't see them go.

I don't say the no Russians can escape the pocket (we know that huge numbers did), I am just suprised that, in the example given, no Soviet units had to fight to escape, they all seemed to be able to swiftly march out of danger, along safe routes, evading any contact with enemy units.

I repeat, I don't want to prejudge the Campaign that I have not played yet (the testers have played 1000s of hours, we haven't) and I am aware of the potential effects of IgoUgo turn system, but it just doesn't feel right and I suggest that there are ways to modify the parameters, to reflect the advantages of the initiative the attacker holds. [:)]

The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

And yet the Germans did just that, bagging hundreds of thousands of prisoners in a matter of weeks. Isn't that proof enough that Soviet forces should not be able to evaporate out of a pocket?

I have only played a few smallish scenarios so far, have closed some smallish pockets and missed some bigger ones, but the speed with which they empty is amazing.

But the main point is that the computer should not be able to move in ways that a human player cannot, such as ignoring ZoCs (if that is what is happening).

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

Which way do you run ? A retreat order is given, enemy units which can move faster than you are moving somewhere in the rear and you don't know where they are headed, which way is safe ? You said earlier that troops retreat down their own supply lines, that is correct and those lines of communications are the first thing that the enemy will cut. It would be reasonable to assume that at least some (I never said catch everybody)of the retreating units might run into the encircling forces. That didn't seem to happen in the example given.

Under a strict interpretation of IGOUGO the defender gets to react to the enemy moves after that move is complete, so unsurprisingly all the escaping units head for the small gap remaining(in reality some time will be lost in finding out what's going on and deciding a reaction). It's called inertia, it takes time to get things moving, the enemy has done all his planning and orders before the move is enacted, therefore does not suffer from as much inertia. Try and keep up with someone who is already running when they go past you. Unless some other penalty is introduced, there will be an unrealistic representation of the actual events.

I have no doubt that the developers and testers will have confronted this issue before and it remains to be seen whether it will warrant more attention. It doesn't matter what you and I think, it's their view that counts, as to whether anything needs, or can be fixed. [:)]

Last word - Look at the pictures of the faces of the 100,000s of Russian troops who experienced encirclement by the Germans, I don't think they look like defence, retreat and running away is the 'much, much easier' option.

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

And yet the Germans did just that, bagging hundreds of thousands of prisoners in a matter of weeks. Isn't that proof enough that Soviet forces should not be able to evaporate out of a pocket?

It's not much of a game if the Germans just duplicate 1941 over and over. I think to get some variability in the flow of the game, you have to be pretty exacting when it comes to the requirements for duplicating 1941-style pockets. If the game in 1941 comes down to producing pockets on schedule, then that seems pretty pointless. Players might as well just skip it and move on to 1942, which is what I've done. I assume the pockets happened and 3 million Russians went off to starve, but what's the point, game-wise of duplicating that? I'd rather play out 1942 where there is no pre-determined pocketing schedule. Heaven knows even the AI isn't going to let an army get pocketed at Stalingrad.

Actually, you could say the same thing for 1941. Heaven knows even the AI isn't going to let most of the army get pocketed, but what's obvious for the German AI is apparently not obvious for the Russian AI.

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

Which way do you run ? A retreat order is given, enemy units which can move faster than you are moving somewhere in the rear and you don't know where they are headed, which way is safe ? You said earlier that troops retreat down their own supply lines, that is correct and those lines of communications are the first thing that the enemy will cut. It would be reasonable to assume that at least some (I never said catch everybody)of the retreating units might run into the encircling forces. That didn't seem to happen in the example given.

The example looks extreme, but the underlying logic is reasonable: an incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Essentially, the defender has a week to get out. When he starts retreating, everything on the LOCs gets out right away, before there's even a rumor of enemy forces. that's maybe 50% of the support troops and say 10-20% of the line units (replacements, repairs etc.). so that takes a day or two at most.
Then the line units pull out along with the remaining support units. Since the enemy already magically knows (incorrectly) that it's a pocket the line units pull out in strategic move mode, and slip out of the encirclement long, long before even the enemy advanced guard even turns up. This leaves only stragglers to be
picketed up by the confused and out-of-position encirclers who clearly have no idea what's going on since they turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time and left all kinds of holes in the cordon. Since its an emergency, there's less straggling and the stragglers who are picked up are more than covered in terms of loses by normal attrition.

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
It's not much of a game if the Germans just duplicate 1941 over and over.

Also not much of a wargame if it doesn't reflect reality.

No one here is suggesting that the Russians should just sit there and surrender, but they should not be able to teleport out of the pocket either.

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
It's not much of a game if the Germans just duplicate 1941 over and over.

Also not much of a wargame if it doesn't reflect reality.

No one here is suggesting that the Russians should just sit there and surrender, but they should not be able to teleport out of the pocket either.

The game reflects reality by giving you a range of decisions similar to what people at the time would have had. It doesn't reflect reality by duplicating it. Duplication would mean no decisions. If you want to have a range of decisions then you're going to have to be pretty strict with pocket rules and an incompete pocket is not a pocket at all.

ORIGINAL: MengJiao

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
The attacker isn't magical just because he thinks he knows where he is going. In the context of an encirclement the attacker is in an even more difficult position especially with regards to timing and context. The attack is far more difficult than defense and running away is much, much easier than getting a whole set of armies into position to catch everybody who is trying to run away.

Which way do you run ? A retreat order is given, enemy units which can move faster than you are moving somewhere in the rear and you don't know where they are headed, which way is safe ? You said earlier that troops retreat down their own supply lines, that is correct and those lines of communications are the first thing that the enemy will cut. It would be reasonable to assume that at least some (I never said catch everybody)of the retreating units might run into the encircling forces. That didn't seem to happen in the example given.

The example looks extreme, but the underlying logic is reasonable: an incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Essentially, the defender has a week to get out. When he starts retreating, everything on the LOCs gets out right away, before there's even a rumor of enemy forces. that's maybe 50% of the support troops and say 10-20% of the line units (replacements, repairs etc.). so that takes a day or two at most.
Then the line units pull out along with the remaining support units. Since the enemy already magically knows (incorrectly) that it's a pocket the line units pull out in strategic move mode, and slip out of the encirclement long, long before even the enemy advanced guard even turns up. This leaves only stragglers to be
picketed up by the confused and out-of-position encirclers who clearly have no idea what's going on since they turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time and left all kinds of holes in the cordon. Since its an emergency, there's less straggling and the stragglers who are picked up are more than covered in terms of loses by normal attrition.

If you think that this is an extreme example, then you have a lot to learn about warfare on the Eastern Front 1941/45 and maybe playing this game will help.

Up to 5 million Russian troops became POWs, most of them died in captivity, how extreme do you want it to be. This did not happen because they were able to slip out of the encirclement, at least they couldn't until later in the war when strategy and tactics improved.

In 1941 the Soviet defender doesn't have a week to get out, he has a week to realise the attack is taking place, to work out what the enemy objectives might be, decide whether to hold, or not (penalty for not holding is a firing squad - tendency is therefore to hold), retreat is usually forced after command and control has collapsed (usually HQs overun, enemy is already in the rear areas). By the time the Russians are retreating it is already too late. The power of the game is for the Russians to still win after suffering all of this, or with a different German strategy, do they get the chance.

To be of value the game needs to be as accurate as possible and maybe it is, time will tell. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: MengJiao

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa




Which way do you run ? A retreat order is given, enemy units which can move faster than you are moving somewhere in the rear and you don't know where they are headed, which way is safe ? You said earlier that troops retreat down their own supply lines, that is correct and those lines of communications are the first thing that the enemy will cut. It would be reasonable to assume that at least some (I never said catch everybody)of the retreating units might run into the encircling forces. That didn't seem to happen in the example given.

The example looks extreme, but the underlying logic is reasonable: an incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Essentially, the defender has a week to get out. When he starts retreating, everything on the LOCs gets out right away, before there's even a rumor of enemy forces. that's maybe 50% of the support troops and say 10-20% of the line units (replacements, repairs etc.). so that takes a day or two at most.
Then the line units pull out along with the remaining support units. Since the enemy already magically knows (incorrectly) that it's a pocket the line units pull out in strategic move mode, and slip out of the encirclement long, long before even the enemy advanced guard even turns up. This leaves only stragglers to be
picketed up by the confused and out-of-position encirclers who clearly have no idea what's going on since they turned up in the wrong place at the wrong time and left all kinds of holes in the cordon. Since its an emergency, there's less straggling and the stragglers who are picked up are more than covered in terms of loses by normal attrition.

If you think that this is an extreme example, then you have a lot to learn about warfare on the Eastern Front 1941/45 and maybe playing this game will help.

Up to 5 million Russian troops became POWs, most of them died in captivity, how extreme do you want it to be. This did not happen because they were able to slip out of the encirclement, at least they couldn't until later in the war when strategy and tactics improved.

In 1941 the Soviet defender doesn't have a week to get out, he has a week to realise the attack is taking place, to work out what the enemy objectives might be, decide whether to hold, or not (penalty for not holding is a firing squad - tendency is therefore to hold), retreat is usually forced after command and control has collapsed (usually HQs overun, enemy is already in the rear areas). By the time the Russians are retreating it is already too late. The power of the game is for the Russians to still win after suffering all of this, or with a different German strategy, do they get the chance.

To be of value the game needs to be as accurate as possible and maybe it is, time will tell. [:)]

I don't see the point in forcing the game to repeat 1941 over and over. It seems to me that to get a range of outcomes, you need to be very strict in what a pocket is. An incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Hence the troops can just leave. If you want to cripple the Russians at the push of a button, you'll probably have to make your own mod.

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
I don't see the point in forcing the game to repeat 1941 over and over. It seems to me that to get a range of outcomes, you need to be very strict in what a pocket is. An incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Hence the troops can just leave. If you want to cripple the Russians at the push of a button, you'll probably have to make your own mod.

The game is called War in the East - The German Soviet War 1941-1945, with 1941 being one of the most significant years, which cannot be ignored, with different strategies the war may have ended there. Different strategies are meaningless if the game doesn't represent the true capabilities of the forces and equipment involved. The whole point is, that I don't want to repeat the actual events of 1941, I don't expect that anyone on this forum does, but I want to try different strategies with the forces and conditions faced by the commanders of that time. In this game no one will ever be crippling the Russians at the push of a button. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
I don't see the point in forcing the game to repeat 1941 over and over. It seems to me that to get a range of outcomes, you need to be very strict in what a pocket is. An incomplete pocket is not a pocket at all. Hence the troops can just leave. If you want to cripple the Russians at the push of a button, you'll probably have to make your own mod.

The game is called War in the East - The German Soviet War 1941-1945, with 1941 being one of the most significant years, which cannot be ignored, with different strategies the war may have ended there. Different strategies are meaningless if the game doesn't represent the true capabilities of the forces and equipment involved. The whole point is, that I don't want to repeat the actual events of 1941, I don't expect that anyone on this forum does, but I want to try different strategies with the forces and conditions faced by the commanders of that time. In this game no one will ever be crippling the Russians at the push of a button. [:)]

I think the problem of 1941 is not resolvable in game terms. A German general staff study in the 1970s concluded there was absolutely no way the German Army could have taken Moscow and/or knocked Russia out of the War in 1941. And yet players demand that "realistically" they ought to be able to do just that. To insist that it be possible is essentially to insist that the Russians be crippled before the game starts.

So, since the problem is not resolvable in game terms, I'm skipping to 1942, a year where I think everybody admits things could go either way.
I'm not going to play any 1941 scenarios since I think realistically, they should be infinitely frustrating for the Germans and that does not sound like much fun.

ORIGINAL: MengJiao
I think the problem of 1941 is not resolvable in game terms. A German general staff study in the 1970s concluded there was absolutely no way the German Army could have taken Moscow and/or knocked Russia out of the War in 1941. And yet players demand that "realistically" they ought to be able to do just that. To insist that it be possible is essentially to insist that the Russians be crippled before the game starts.

So, since the problem is not resolvable in game terms, I'm skipping to 1942, a year where I think everybody admits things could go either way.
I'm not going to play any 1941 scenarios since I think realistically, they should be infinitely frustrating for the Germans and that does not sound like much fun.

I am not demanding, or insisting, to realistically knock Russia out of the war, I hope to try realistically to knock Russia out of the war. I would just like to know that if I succeeded, or failed, that it would be a realistic result, if the game could make it possible, maybe it already does. I am prepared to wait and see, it is too early to judge. [:)]