Axis Players Think Tank

[Joel Billings]

Do you have a save before the attack on Moscow that caused it to go from 50 pop to 1 pop? I would have guessed the 5 limit was per attack or capture, but we shouldn't see it go from 50 to 1 from one attack. If you have a save, please send to 2by3@2by3games.com. Thanks.

[MrLongleg]

I think the major problem for PBEM is, that a smart Russian player can avoid a lot of harm form the Germans by retreating East fast. That happened in my game. There is no point for a Russian player holding any ground before Kharkov, Moscow and Leningrad, except maybe using the Dnepr in the South for some delay action. When the Germans finally arrive there the Russians can have decent defenses, while the Germans struggle with Logistics.

In my game against Miller41 part of my problems certainly have to do with the fact, that this game is my first GC. Never played one before - even against the AI. All in all I think is is too easy for the Russians to avoid major beatings in 41 - except for the very first turns.

[Mynok]

Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.

[MrLongleg]

But is there any real penalty for the Russian player if he decides to evacuate Moscow? There is still plenty of space left further East.

Another thing is the evacuation of population every time you take a town. Did that happen in the war?

[Flaviusx]

Evacuating the Moscow factories will seriously stress the Soviet rails. (Easily exceeds the per turn rail cap, and will take multiple turns to do.) There's a huge complex of armament factories in Tula as well. If the Soviet is being forced to evacuate these areas on top of what he would usually do, something has to give. And Moscow puts out a lot of manpower that will be missed.

[gradenko2k]

I think the major problem for PBEM is, that a smart Russian player can avoid a lot of harm form the Germans by retreating East fast. That happened in my game. There is no point for a Russian player holding any ground before Kharkov, Moscow and Leningrad, except maybe using the Dnepr in the South for some delay action. When the Germans finally arrive there the Russians can have decent defenses, while the Germans struggle with Logistics.

I doubt you have to run away that far east. It's possible to give Germans logistical fits between Minsk and Moscow. Wasting all that space just denies you the opportunity to make some counterattacks while some of the units are in red supply.

[MrLongleg]

I doubt you have to run away that far east. It's possible to give Germans logistical fits between Minsk and Moscow. Wasting all that space just denies you the opportunity to make some counterattacks while some of the units are in red supply.

You miss a couple of counter attacks - but you save a lot of forces. Just avoid combat and only fight on river lines to delay. The Blizzard will do all the dirty work for you [:D]

[MrLongleg]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Evacuating the Moscow factories will seriously stress the Soviet rails. (Easily exceeds the per turn rail cap, and will take multiple turns to do.) There's a huge complex of armament factories in Tula as well. If the Soviet is being forced to evacuate these areas on top of what he would usually do, something has to give. And Moscow puts out a lot of manpower that will be missed.

Isn't the population evacuated to some towns in Sibiria?

[Flaviusx]

Some of the pop will get out. But not all of it.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Part of this is true, the tanks will hit the line eventually, but then again the Germans will know where it is through air recon. If the USSR is truly just fleeing, the mobile units will be cutting out huge swaths of land to be clear of control the next turn. The infantry will be behind, but not that bad as they are moving forward at 12-16 per turn. Sure everything is strung out, but it will come together soon enough - often in a goodly compacted masses.

With a lot of time left in the campaign season, air supply, and prioritized RR repair (as mentioned above)...I would be licking my chops as the Axis player. In 1941 the USSR can be pushed around, a fall back defense would mean just starting closer to the goals.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Bob, I'm trying to drive a stake through the heart of the runaway vampire here. And to show that this is an Axis non problem.

While this seems like a Soviet-oriented point, it really does belong here. I have not seen one suggestion as to how an Axis player is going to deal with a Sir Robinevskey strategy. I've been pondering it myself.

While my experience is limited so an AI GC and a lot of scenario playing, I'm coming to realize I need to make the following changes in my Axis methodology:

1) Pay attention to details. It is easy to overlook possible means that the Soviets can disrupt your LOC and your pockets. I'm two turns behind now in my RTL game against a human. [:-]

2) Get better at logistics, which essentially means get better at rail repair. This is very hard because we don't control most of our rail repair.

3) Know thy enemy. I need to play the Soviets more.

if your enemy sir robins. Then help him out by taking all his high manpower cities. That makes sure his numbers are going to take longer to spring back. And you'll get to his throat before he has time to build a decent line. I agree with flav. If i had pulled back my forces ara would have gotten moscow and kursk and orel (he got kharkov) before winter.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Haudrauf1962

I doubt you have to run away that far east. It's possible to give Germans logistical fits between Minsk and Moscow. Wasting all that space just denies you the opportunity to make some counterattacks while some of the units are in red supply.

You miss a couple of counter attacks - but you save a lot of forces. Just avoid combat and only fight on river lines to delay. The Blizzard will do all the dirty work for you [:D]

There is nothing the soviets have before 42 that will give a german player anything to think twice about unless those forces are dug into deep level 4 forts (maybe 3 in good terrain). Besides anything rifles or tank divisions/brigades you lose come back later. I suppose we could have someone play a soviet game with an AAR showing the run away defense. Then watch an axis player tear the soviets up.

[randallw]

Andy ( Sabre21 ) stated there were some test campaigns where the Soviet player made a pullback from turn 1, all the way to Leningrad and Moscow at best pullback rate; the Axis player got there quicker ( by calendar ) and mowed through the level 4 fort areas to take the cities.

[Walloc]

Hi Joel,

File send. Do note this is not from one attack, but several attacks. My point being manual say max 5 per turn, not per attack.
It might be that the intend is to be a max of 5 per attack and not per turn. Just noting if so, manual is off then.
If so maybe it should be considered if the limit should be as per manual be limited per turn not per attack as its working now.

Also i've seen several times that if u succesfully attack a city/urban hex u first get a evac attempt for that and u should get ownership of the hex from the succesfull attack. Non the less when u actually occupy the hex another evac roll is done. In effect even with one succesfull attack giving 2 evac rolls making 10 not 5 evacing pop possible.
Note this far from happens all the time, but it does happen. So its hard to get a save of this.
Just wanted to throw that into the mix in any possible consideration

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: randallw

Andy ( Sabre21 ) stated there were some test campaigns where the Soviet player made a pullback from turn 1, all the way to Leningrad and Moscow at best pullback rate; the Axis player got there quicker ( by calendar ) and mowed through the level 4 fort areas to take the cities.

I've seen testers create a defensive wall usually between Vyzama and Moscow thinking they were safe. All that did was allow my army to get all that much closer to Moscow without having to fight. I don't consider falling back to the Dnepr as a Sir Robin tactic, but unless you leave some delaying forces, the Dnepr can and will be easily breached. I love it though when the Soviet player Sir Robins all the way back to Vyzama - Kharkov - Stalino. Means I can capture a lot of territory with minimal casualties and usually be sitting in Moscow and Leningrad before mud hits sipping Vodka. You ever see what two full strength panzer armies used in echelon led by a corps of 4 heavily reinforced SS divisions led by Manstein can do to a linear defense? From a German perspective, it brings tears of joy, to the Soviets..it's tears of agony.

As Flavio pointed out, you can double team an FBD in the center and down south to get maximum range on rail repair. There is a range limit on how far from a rail head you can repair though, so keep that in mind. You can also place the bulk of the repair units in the Corps Hq's so they won't repair beyond 5 hexes of where the Hq is. This helps focus repairs where you want to make your main advance. Since the Soviets are running, use your air, including bombers to refuel and resupply your units. If need be you can also motorize several infantry divisions to keep up with the panzers giving them extra protection, but I've never had to do that yet because I clear the way with my panzers allowing the infantry to move that much quicker on the following turn.

Overall suggestions for the German player, regardless of the Soviet strategy is to keep the pressure on the Soviets and don't allow them to build a cohesive defense. Take their cities whenever possible to force them to use rail to evacuate factories and deny them replacement manpower. Encircle Soviet forces whenever possible but never give up the momentum just to trap a few units. Maneuver is your friend, use it wisely and try and keep from getting bogged down in a drawn out fight beteen your panzers and the Soviet infantry too often or you will lose the intiative and then you will fight on their terms and not yours.

Andy

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.

And of course there is the loss of the Zero bonus to consider.



Hmm, is this the wrong game to mention that ?

[Farfarer61]

Nice idea witht he Repair battalions in the Corps HQs, and the tag team. I move the Army HQs forward ( once or twice, and by rail if possible) as I have been consistently pleasantly surpised by the choice of hexes the AI bots choose to repair. twice they saved my arse by connecting around areas I had neglected. Are they perfect? no. Are they good considering I expend Zero brainpower planning their reasonably focused activities? yes.

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: randallw

Andy ( Sabre21 ) stated there were some test campaigns where the Soviet player made a pullback from turn 1, all the way to Leningrad and Moscow at best pullback rate; the Axis player got there quicker ( by calendar ) and mowed through the level 4 fort areas to take the cities.

I've seen testers create a defensive wall usually between Vyzama and Moscow thinking they were safe. All that did was allow my army to get all that much closer to Moscow without having to fight. I don't consider falling back to the Dnepr as a Sir Robin tactic, but unless you leave some delaying forces, the Dnepr can and will be easily breached. I love it though when the Soviet player Sir Robins all the way back to Vyzama - Kharkov - Stalino. Means I can capture a lot of territory with minimal casualties and usually be sitting in Moscow and Leningrad before mud hits sipping Vodka. You ever see what two full strength panzer armies used in echelon led by a corps of 4 heavily reinforced SS divisions led by Manstein can do to a linear defense? From a German perspective, it brings tears of joy, to the Soviets..it's tears of agony.

As Flavio pointed out, you can double team an FBD in the center and down south to get maximum range on rail repair. There is a range limit on how far from a rail head you can repair though, so keep that in mind. You can also place the bulk of the repair units in the Corps Hq's so they won't repair beyond 5 hexes of where the Hq is. This helps focus repairs where you want to make your main advance. Since the Soviets are running, use your air, including bombers to refuel and resupply your units. If need be you can also motorize several infantry divisions to keep up with the panzers giving them extra protection, but I've never had to do that yet because I clear the way with my panzers allowing the infantry to move that much quicker on the following turn.

Overall suggestions for the German player, regardless of the Soviet strategy is to keep the pressure on the Soviets and don't allow them to build a cohesive defense. Take their cities whenever possible to force them to use rail to evacuate factories and deny them replacement manpower. Encircle Soviet forces whenever possible but never give up the momentum just to trap a few units. Maneuver is your friend, use it wisely and try and keep from getting bogged down in a drawn out fight beteen your panzers and the Soviet infantry too often or you will lose the intiative and then you will fight on their terms and not yours.

Andy

[bwheatley]

lol

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.

And of course there is the loss of the Zero bonus to consider.



Hmm, is this the wrong game to mention that ?

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Ah...now there's an interesting thought. However, you still have to deal with the movement chasm between panzers and infantry. If he's running away as fast as he can, you will eventually run into his mass of fleeing hordes and then your panzer group will come to a screeching halt lest it be surrounded by sheer numbers.

And of course there is the loss of the Zero bonus to consider.



Hmm, is this the wrong game to mention that ?

The KV-1/T-34 bonus......

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
The KV-1/T-34 bonus......

What bonus? Individually they are nice but collectively, early Tank Divisions and Tank Brigades are "useless".