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ORIGINAL: Herrbear

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse


In June, 1940, Churchill proposed a Franco-British union to keep France in the war. The French President and Premier supported the proposal, but the Cabinet rejected it. Wikipediasuggests that if the proposal had been been made only a few days earlier, the French might well have accepted the offer.

In an alternative history, instead of waiting until the 16th, Churchill offers a union as the Germans march into Paris on June 14th. The French cabinet accepts. Mainland France is still overrun, but there is no Vichy, and the fleet sails to English and Free French (now Anglo-French) ports.

Given this scenario, several additional French (and British) ships could become available for service in the Pacific. This alternative history would also substantially redraw the at-start map, as Japan presumably could not have occupied Anglo-French Indochina before the war. Singapore is a safe harbor, outside the range of Japanese land-based air.

To imitate AE, if this scenario is considered, the Japanese could start with control of Indochinese bases, with invasion forces just arrived that day from amphibious task forces.

I am assuming that Indo China would now be "Free French"? If not, since France was overrun would not, or could not, Indo China just be administered by Axis which would allow Japan to enter as they did.

Correct. A Franco-British union would mean that all (previously) French territories would remain in the war against the Axis.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Did not know that! Highly interesting thoughtline...

No North African disaster between the French and British? I couldn't see anything of substantial size brought out East but a French CL or 2 plus a Division of DDs might be highly entertaining. With no French Fleet around (in Vichy) you just might be able to justify another British Capital Ship joining Force Z.

Or adding the Richelieu, Dunkerque or Strasbourg to Force Z, with their complement of french destroyers.

This is site that lists the locations of the French Fleet at the time of the Armistice

http://france1940.free.fr/navy/mar_jun.html

Figure some stay in the Med to keep the Italians in check, some in the Atlantic and what ever is left heads to the Pacific. Down side is if Indochina is still in French hands the fleet will be in Saigon/Haiphong well with in range of the IJAF/IJNAF.

Modernization of the Big 5...
Proposals:

Blister the sides to raise the waterline between 20-24".
Re Boiler the ships.
New Mk 33 5" AA directors.
Proposed twin 5"38 mounts in place of the 5"/51 and 5"25's on board.  (Did not state whether they would be shouldered up onto the 01 level or kept on the main deck.)
Would have increased displacement into the 38-39K ton range.

I would have to find the exact specs somewhere, but that was from my notes I took some eight years back....

This sounds like something we could work with. Can you look for those specifics if you get the chance?

Dunkerque or Strasbourg as part of Force Z?!! Wow...that could be...fun...

I don't see why the Wasp can't be built as a Yorktown, just lay it down so it comes out after 1936.

One could also bite the bullet and deploy Ranger into the Pacific...

Terminus no offense taken, Thank you for pointing that out.  I didn't think of it that way and you are right. 
 
Rev
That is what I found.  If a ship is reboilered, it get a new engine or its upgraded right?  What would its speed be?  I also seen were they were mentioned about adding STS to the deck armor.  Also increaseing the beam of those ships.  What about moving the torp blistered into the beam increase so the ships don't loose any more speed.
 
The idea of the Franco and British Union sounds really good to me.  Add an Indochina still in French hands.  Some extra AC thats been mentioned above and bringing the US up to treaty tonnage is great.  It just depends on how wild the Japanese gets.  Maybe we should have a teaty drawn now  the AE Naval treaty.
 
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ORIGINAL: oldman45

This is site that lists the locations of the French Fleet at the time of the Armistice

http://france1940.free.fr/navy/mar_jun.html

Figure some stay in the Med to keep the Italians in check, some in the Atlantic and what ever is left heads to the Pacific. Down side is if Indochina is still in French hands the fleet will be in Saigon/Haiphong well with in range of the IJAF/IJNAF.

As an old land slogger I feel alittle off my turf w/ this question. If a Franco-Brit union occurs then w/ no vichy fleet to worry about what is the effect on British fleet deployment?(did the vichy fleet tie down any of the Brit fleet?)

I would imagin a large french fleet ( i figure 1/2 of the above link list) deployment at Madagascar(in our case Oman) w/ some forward elements in Saigon. It would be fun to have a French foreign legion LCU. I surely hope the french AF has a few good fighters to cover the fleet.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

This sounds like something we could work with. Can you look for those specifics if you get the chance?

Dunkerque or Strasbourg as part of Force Z?!! Wow...that could be...fun...

I'm the original landlubber . . . as far as I know "port" is something you drink with a good cigar, "stern" is how the bossman looks when he orders the boat to ram, and the "bow" is the pointy end of the boat, what is used for ramming.

So I'll defer to anyone who knows something about things that float to provide data on the ship classes of the French Navy.
[;)]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Just walked to school to pick-up my boys and had several ideas:

How about--thinking on justification on a stronger Allied response/presence on Dec 7th--their is now slow expansion of the China War like what happened IRL. Going along Blackhorse's idea the Japanese Army is corralled and restrained until fall-1939/early-1940 when it launches a brutal FULL SCALE assault into China. A million men deploy and attack with utter ruthlessness. Hitler is active in Europe with war there. The Japanese offensive carries through 1940 and PICKS UP STEAM in 1941. The Allies must respond and do something. Couple this with the historical occupation of Indochina and one could see real pressure for action.

The Allies make as much of a stopgap adjustment as they can before the hammer falls Dec 7th:

A. Old ships (S-Boats for example) are pressed into service.
B. Roosevelt does NOT force the deployment of the 3 Idaho's and their support ships from Pearl Harbor to the East Coast.

If the French Battleships are in the Atlantic, there is no reason for the Idaho's to go there for convoy escort.

C. Churchill sends more then can be spared from GB.

I am sounding like a broken record now [;)] with the French in the Med and Atlantic some extra RN ships can come to Singer.

D. ABDA begins to take shape PRIOR to the war. Why not have the ships better organized? Marblehead and her 4 DD could be in Singapore...

You could also send the Marblehead to the US like you suggested and use a French cruiser(s) with their large DD's.

E. Read anything listed in my previous Post as here...

Additionally, why not pull all the Omaha's to the West Coast and have them started on their Conversion to CLAA. They move into the reinforcement cue instead of having to move them there and actually start the conversion. Replace Marblehead with a modern CA or add a friend to USS Boise.

How about that?

YEA!

I need about 10 hours of uninterrupted writing and research time for this. Ain't gonna happen today but I'll see what can be done.

Can someone check out what French Ships COULD come over based on the weblink Posted earlier?

Oldman: You hit the reasoning on not sending the Idaho's to the Atlantic quite well! Like it.

So does French Indo-china stay in allied hands or does it go to the Japanese?  I have no idea what ships could of came to the Pacific, so I'll let someone else look at that. One third or even one fourth of the french fleet in the Pacific is big.  I think it would seem more logical to have 2 or so French BBs close to the French colonys than the Idahos.  I did find a site for French AC.
 
http://www.century-of-flight.net/new%20site/frames2/WW2%20french%20aircraft_frame.htm
 
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What about starting with 50% on Indochina grabbed? Isn't that what the Japanese did to start with and then simply TOOK the rest?

Here is another link that might be more helpful. Its lists the units and their make up.

Fleet Locations 1940

French Pacific Fleet 1941 [;)]


Richelieu Flag ship 1942 when it comes out of the US Yards.

2nd Cruiser Division - heavy cruisers DUQUESNE (Flag, Vice Amiral R E Godfroy, CV G E Besineau), SUFFREN (CV R J M Dillard), TOURVILLE (CV A J A Marloy), light cruiser DUGUAY TROUIN (CV J M C Trolley de Prevaux, CF P B J Benac from 10 Oct)

3rd Destroyer Division – LE FORTUNÉ (CC J E L Serres)

9th Destroyer Division - BASQUE (CC Y G M Caron), FORBIN (CC R C M Catellier)

2nd Large Destroyer Division - LÉOPARD (CF C A Loisel)

11th Large Destroyer Division - ÉPERVIER (CF J J G Bros)

Sloop - LASSIGNY (CC A P M Robillard)

Sloop - AMIRAL CHARNER (CF F M Faye)

Sloop - MARNE

Sloop - DUMONT D'URVILLE (CF P G Toussaint de Quieverecourt)

3rd Submarine Division - ACHÉRON (CC J J M Alliou), ACTÉON (LV J C G Clavieres), PROTÉE (CC J M L J Garreau)

10th Submarine Division - ESPADON (CC CF Sevellec), PHOQUE (Leader, CC J F M A P Laguarigue) DAUPHIN (LV B J J Petit)

Armed merchant cruisers - BARFLEUR (CF H J B Gizard), QUERCY (CF R Seriot), ÉSTEREL (CF M M M P Noel) ARAMIS

Maybe.....

Battleship - LORRAINE (CV M L M Rey)


We would need to add an AS, I assume they had one or do a conversion. Of course we could send more of the boats to the IO/Pacific, not like there is a great need for subs in the Atlantic. Also the game already has some French ships included. We would just have to adjust for those ships that did not sit in port till 43 to get their up grades and join the FF. They could go to the US yards anytime and head east or west. My guess would be they would use Colombo or Madagascar as a port or Indochina if its in play.

You might want to look at this site for French ship information as well

http://lemairesoft.sytes.net:1944/pages ... &langue=en

The easiest answer here is to go along with the suggestion that the French make it possible for the British to redeploy and augment Force Z. How about pulling from Force H and grab a fast BB, modern CA or CL, and a Division of 4 DD? This would be a potent addition to the Allied Forces on Dec 7th without having to create new art, new ships, etc...

We could go the French was with a small, comparable squadron deployed but going all British might be easier. Opinions?

I am not entirely sure about Indochina. What do people think there?

On the OTHER hand, has anyone ever created the French Fleet in game terms?

Not all of it, no. But I propose we follow your other idea, that the MN takes over (in part) from the RN in the Med.