strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

[Plainian]

B)

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

If most of the rules are written as above then I would hope that they have diagrams to illustrate them. Too easy to infer that friendly units negate all ZOC's and allow resources to be moved through more than one, which is how it looks at first glance.

[paulderynck]

What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.

[Extraneous]

It's the "enter or leave" part.

First of all I understand as per the rules where the ZOC extends into the hex (see 2.2 Zones of control).


The rule states:

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.

The problem is, if you have to stop if you enter a ZOC why mention it twice?


Example: We all can probably agree...

If a friendly unit is in the hex and there is an enemy ZOC from the southeast when the rail line goes to the west, northwest, or northeast the resource can leave the hex.

But...

After the above has occurred and after the resource's move has advanced several hexes clear of enemy ZOC.

If there is a friendly unit in the hex and there is a second enemy ZOC does this block the resource's move?

[Centuur]

It's a simple rule. A resource can enter OR leave a hex in enemy ZOC if a friendly unit is in the hex (the number of units is of no importance). A resource can't ever move through a hex in enemy ZOC.

[Extraneous]

There is nothing to prevent you from entering a enemy ZOC with or without a friendly unit in the hex you just have to stop.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.

How about:

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - entering a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
3 - moving through a hex, under all conditions.

They both use 34 words.[:)]

I think my wording also covers the case about the resource being in the hex with the destination factory, but adding that sentence for clarification still seems like a good idea to me.

[Extraneous]

Is this what you mean [&:]

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - entering and leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - moving from one enemy ZOC to another,
3 - moving through a hex, under all other conditions.

In this case if you don't use "and" you have 2 conditions "either this" or "that".

Sorry, I used more words but I think it is clearer.

If a friendly factory is in a ZOC from the Northeast and the resource's move came from the southwest the resource could enter the factory because it would stop when it entered the enemy ZOC (the factory).

[Plainian]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.

I don't read rules one sentence at a time, I try to make sense of things as a whole. As Extraneous pointed out is was the "enter or leave" part in conjunction with the sentence above which initially confused me.

I didn't realize rules had to be concise. I thought they just had to be clear and unambiguous.

I'm definitely not your guest.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is this what you mean [&:]

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - entering and leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - moving from one enemy ZOC to another,
3 - moving through a hex, under all other conditions.

In this case if you don't use "and" you have 2 conditions "either this" or "that".

Sorry, I used more words but I think it is clearer.

If a friendly factory is in a ZOC from the Northeast and the resource's move came from the southwest the resource could enter the factory because it would stop when it entered the enemy ZOC (the factory).

No this won't work, Shannon's is better. Here's an example of why:

The resource immediately east of Moscow along with Moscow are both occupied by Russian units and German units surround them with ZOCs on both hexes. That resource can be produced by a factory in Moscow because it can leave an enemy ZOC and enter an enemy ZOC. It does not move through a hex in a ZOC, it moves from one to another enemy ZOC, even if those two ZOCs are both exerted by the same enemy unit.

This actually happens quite often in WiFFE Barb games.

[CrusssDaddy]

Does paul need a hug?

[Extraneous]

This is a new concept for me. We understood the rule to be that a friendly unit simply negates the ZOC, which is much less complicated.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - entering a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
3 - moving through a hex, under all conditions.

Shannon's example doesn't meet the "either or" condition stated in the rule. The rule is an either "enter" or "leave" his example is "enter" and "leave".


The rule has 2 conditions not 3 so it has to be considered as:

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - entering or leaving a hex, if a friendly land unit is present you may either enter or leave (you can't do both) a hex one time,
2 - moving through a hex, under all conditions.

Explanation of #1:
Since its an either or situation you cannot do both.
You may either enter or leave a hex one time because you stop when you enter the next ZOC.

[Mike Parker]

Be careful about too closely analysing an OR as you have done (if I am understanding your statements). There is inclusive OR and exclusive OR and its never really 100% positive which is meant. In general though we tend to understand OR as inclusing meaning one is allowed to do both and still count as satisfying an OR clause. In computer world we have the understanding that OR is inclusive and XOR is the exclusive version of OR which really goes a long way towards clearing things up.

Do the WIF rules really mean XOR in this case? probably not but it could be argued I suppose!

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

This is a new concept for me. We understood the rule to be that a friendly unit simply negates the ZOC, which is much less complicated.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - entering a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
3 - moving through a hex, under all conditions.

Shannon's example doesn't meet the "either or" condition stated in the rule. The rule is an either "enter" or "leave" his example is "enter" and "leave".


The rule has 2 conditions not 3 so it has to be considered as:

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - entering or leaving a hex, if a friendly land unit is present you may either enter or leave (you can't do both) a hex one time,
2 - moving through a hex, under all conditions.

Explanation of #1:
Since its an either or situation you cannot do both.
You may either enter or leave a hex one time because you stop when you enter the next ZOC.

Throwing away adjectives, adjective phrases, and articles:
Move can only enter or leave if unit in hex. Move must stop when enters ZOC.

Further reduction, with:
IFF = if and only if
A = move enter
B = move leave
C = unit in hex
D = must stop
E = enter ZOC

A OR B IFF C. D IF E.

Boolean logic operators give:

IF C THEN A.
IF C THEN B.
IF E THEN D.

Which is what I wrote.[8D]

The ADG text doesn't give priority/precedence to these rules. The normal assumption is that the rules are cumulative (i.e., they all apply). But it's possible to argue that the first two override the last, rendering the last rule meaningless.

EDIT: But obviously Mike is right about the OR potentially being misunderstood to be an XOR.

[Extraneous]

IF unit in hex THEN move enter (and this occurs 1 time?)
IF unit in hex THEN move leave (and this occurs 1 time?)
IF enter ZOC THEN must stop

Perhaps a flowchart showing my understanding of what you are saying will help.

The-Switch = OFF

Start
If there isn't a ZOC go to Continue-to-move

Leaving-a-ZOC
If The-Switch = ON go to Stop
If there is a unit present The-Switch = ON go to Continue-to-move
Go to Stop

Continue-to-move
Get the next hex
If there isn't a ZOC go to Start

Entering-a-ZOC
If The-Switch = ON go to Stop
If there is a unit present The-Switch = ON go to Start

Stop

[gridley]

I have tried to ignore this thread...then get sucked back in...successfully ignored again...then sucked back in again...[:(]

For the love of God, finish this game!!!

[Extraneous]

So resource moves are handled like land units moving through a ZOC not like tracing supply [&:]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

So resource moves are handled like land units moving through a ZOC not like tracing supply [&:]

While all three rules involve 'movement' to some degree, it really isn't possible to lump them all together as a single rule. It's better to think of them as different aspects of the game. Or, to memorize one of the rules and then learn the differences between your 'baseline' and the other two.

There is also rail movement, to go with land movement, supply lines, and routing resources.

ZOC also affect breaking down and reforming units, and placing partisans on the board.

The most important rule in the game is: "Keep the rule booklet handy."[:D]

[paulderynck]

And don't forget the exceptions. A unit must stop moving when it enters a ZOC except for which four situations?

[Mike Parker]

I take it one of the four is NOT

Quickly move the unit again in hopes nobody notices?

[Extraneous]

It just seams strange to me that rail supply can go through hexes if a friendly unit is present and resources can't.

[

Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
• into an enemy ZOC (unless the hex contains a friendly land unit); or
• into a hex controlled by another major power unless it agrees; or
• into a hex controlled by a neutral country (exception: Vichy territory ~ see 17.4 and Sweden ~ see 19.7); or
• across an alpine hexside; or
• across a lake hexside (except when frozen); or
• across an all sea hexside that isn’t a straits hexside (except as an overseas supply path); or
• for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR is at war with Germany.