Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Wargame: Airland Battle, the sequel to Wargame: European Escalation, is coming out in a few weeks. Both are quirky little RTS games where NATO/WP combat in 80s Europe takes place. Not really my cup of tea as W: EE (which I did buy on deep discount) strikes me as more of a Command & Conquer where you have replaced the skins. Unit formations and tactics are almost ahistorical. But...

This $40 game is currently being offered for pre-order on Steam for $30 for those who own Wargame: European Escalation. Ubisoft is rewarding faithful fans of the concept with a financial gift.

When did Matrix last do this, offer a price reduction in exchange for a pre-purchase commitment? When did they last say "Thanks, fans of the ABC series for your loyalty, here's a pre-purchase financial break"? And no, the recent "Hey, if you already bought Panzer Corps modules we won't charge you twice for them" doesn't count.

Panzer Command Ostfront was given for free to owners of Panzer Command Kharkoff!

I think there was also some kind of discount going from Advanced Tactics to Advanced Tactics Gold.. I think the deals depend on the 'developer'..

I believe Iain made it very clear that Matrix has a firm control on such deals, as they feel too deep a discount would "cheapen" the esteem the public holds for its games.

PCK was the forerunner to PCO. IIRC (no, even better, let's use Matrix's own words), PCO "...replaces both Panzer Command: Winterstorm and Panzer Command: Kharkov in our catalog and includes all the content of both of those releases." So we're looking at another Panzer Corps situation where owners of the base version would be charged a second time for an upgraded version. I can't address ATG as it is one of the dozens of Matrix Games I've never seen on sale, and I think $44 (CAD) is a tad pricey for a 2 year old reworking of a system released five and a half years ago.

BTW, PCO is one of the nine Matrix games that I own. Acquired it on sale about a year ago and I'm very glad they did put it on sale, as I immensely enjoyed playing it. But I wasn't willing to take a chance on it for full price.

Ok, I wasn't going to post any more, but the idea that we haven't offered discounts and rewarded loyalty is preposterous. We've been among the best in the business on that. We don't typically do pre-orders, because we don't like taking people's money until we have something to give them for it. However, we have had many similar rewards where we give a discount for owning a previous title in the series or sell a new title at an "upgrade" cost for previous owners. To take the example above, Ostfront was the sequel to Winterstorm and Kharkov just like Airland Battle is the sequal to European Escalation. We gave Ostfront free to previous owners. There are many instances where we've done a $10 or $15 discount for a sequel title.

Our store also has many cross-sell bundles, where if you buy more than one title from the same developer, you get a discount.

In addition to our six week holiday sale, where most of the catalog is 35% off, we have periodic blitzkrieg or themed sales and generally every newsletter (do you subscribe to those?) includes a discount coupon.

Incidentally, calling Wargame a "quirky little RTS" in no way changes the fact that it has a far larger development team and budget than any of our titles. RTS is a mainstream game style, not niche, and Wargame is very much a RTS (albeit a very good one with a historical setting).

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, I truly don't want to draw you back into a discussion that you felt you had left, but I would like to reply. Feel under no obligation to respond.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, I wasn't going to post any more, but the idea that we haven't offered discounts and rewarded loyalty is preposterous. We've been among the best in the business on that.

I'm sorry, but the regular and deep discounts Steam and GG offer on their small strategy catalogue make me question that notion. Paradox, upon reaching 500 000 readers of their forums, gave away free copies of EU III to every member as a celebration.

We don't typically do pre-orders, because we don't like taking people's money until we have something to give them for it.

Fair enough. And in some cases it's a very good thing to avoid pre-orders...Combined Arms: World War II ring a bell?

However, we have had many similar rewards where we give a discount for owning a previous title in the series or sell a new title at an "upgrade" cost for previous owners. To take the example above, Ostfront was the sequel to Winterstorm and Kharkov just like Airland Battle is the sequal to European Escalation. We gave Ostfront free to previous owners.

My impression was that so much of PCO's content was identical to PCW and PCK that if you had tried to charge owners for it there would have been a huge uproar.

There are many instances where we've done a $10 or $15 discount for a sequel title.

I can think of a few, but nowhere near enough to make it "many". I don't go to Matrix/Slitherine every day, but I am on their mailing lists and FB feeds, so I'm at a bit of a loss here. I've taken advantage of at least a quarter of the offers I've seen, and my collection is at nine with several of them from your Holiday sales. And I've been a regular visitor to your site for at least 5 years (when I bought Highway to Hell at an EB Games).

Our store also has many cross-sell bundles, where if you buy more than one title from the same developer, you get a discount.

I have never seen this, not a single time. Please, someone point me to these offers, I'm eager to see what can be purchased!

In addition to our six week holiday sale, where most of the catalog is 35% off, we have periodic blitzkrieg or themed sales and generally every newsletter (do you subscribe to those?) includes a discount coupon.

Four of the nine games were bought from your last Holiday Sale. I did appreciate the 6 week length, as that let my spread out my purchasing at the time of the year where I have the least spare cash available. Steam had several sales over the same period, and I bought (from my quickly consulted records) 16 games from them. Here's the kicker...I spent far less on their 16 than I did on Matrix's four. Oh, and I had to edit to add this...it's been several months (at least) since I've seen a discount code in a mailing list newsletter. And even longer since I've seen one on a game I would consider purchasing (either period covered or price still very high even with discount). But I have certainly taken advantage of the codes in the past. It's also what made Easter so frustrating...the one egg that I found had none of the five discount uses left, and I did my search only several hours after the announcement.

Incidentally, calling Wargame a "quirky little RTS" in no way changes the fact that it has a far larger development team and budget than any of our titles. RTS is a mainstream game style, not niche, and Wargame is very much a RTS (albeit a very good one with a historical setting).

Agreed. However a "far larger budget" also indicates the need for a far larger profit, and yet they are discounting pre-purchases ("losing") $10 per unit. And I don't think any of those pre-purchasers will value the game any less for it being $30 instead of $40.

The concept of actively reducing sales seems so very alien to me, especially when pretty much every other company (short of the manufacturers of luxury watches and supercars) works its butt off to increase sales figures. And I'm sorry, but I don't see Matrix/Slitherine being a Rolex or Ferrari level company.

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

......

My impression was that so much of PCO's content was identical to PCW and PCK that if you had tried to charge owners for it there would have been a huge uproar.
....

I've avoided posting in this thread up to now. I do not have the knowledge of the business that Matrix and Slitherine has, and I respect that they are more likely to know what is best for their business.

But I do have a fair bit of knowledge about what is in Panzer Command Ostfront, and how it compares to Panzer Command Kharkov and Panzer Comman Op Winter Storm. It I can assure you it was much much more than just some minor enhancements and mostly identical content to the two previous games in the series.

I've been glad that Matrix has been able to stay the course. Most, though not all, of my game purchases are made here Matrix.

Thanks
Rick

ORIGINAL: Rick

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

......

My impression was that so much of PCO's content was identical to PCW and PCK that if you had tried to charge owners for it there would have been a huge uproar.
....

I've avoided posting in this thread up to now. I do not have the knowledge of the business that Matrix and Slitherine has, and I respect that they are more likely to know what is best for their business.

But I do have a fair bit of knowledge about what is in Panzer Command Ostfront, and how it compares to Panzer Command Kharkov and Panzer Comman Op Winter Storm. It I can assure you it was much much more than just some minor enhancements and mostly identical content to the two previous games in the series.

Then I sit corrected. My apologies.

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
The concept of actively reducing sales seems so very alien to me, especially when pretty much every other company (short of the manufacturers of luxury watches and supercars) works its butt off to increase sales figures.

That's because you're looking at this issue from a strictly selfish perspective. In your view cheaper games means more for you, you could care less what it means for Matrix and their bottom line. But another line quoted from your post proves Matrix has it right from a business perspective:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
I spent far less on their 16 than I did on Matrix's four.

Even with their lineup of non-eye candy games most of the unwashed masses wouldn't look at let alone buy, they still generated more revenue from you with their business plan than Steam did with its plan. Had they discounted their games you'd have gotten more (the only thing you really are concerned with here) but from a business perspective Matrix would have lost revenue.

Matrix is a niche company they can't grow their target audience non-stop simply by discounting games, there are only so many people who give a hoot about these kinds of games and it's a tiny tiny market. If they don't maximize their profitability on every transaction they'll go under, and then who would make these kinds of games?

Jim

Jim,

In a nutshell you identified what is the real dynamics of the arguments are.(and its understandable because people are always looking for a better deal; While matrix is looking for a viable way to sustain their business)

The key is, quote "they can't grow their audience non-stop by simply discounting games". Because there are not that many people who will ever, quote "give a hoot about these kinds of games"

I know some gamers here have made comments they may buy too many games (in joking). Or they have an extensive library of games. But matrix can't rely on us gamers to all be compulsive game buyers!

So only a discount on certain "select" games then offer 35% off on other non selling "select" games but not on new releases or high priced items. Think you kinda proved my point and that your loyalty program is indeed preposterous.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, I wasn't going to post any more, but the idea that we haven't offered discounts and rewarded loyalty is preposterous. We've been among the best in the business on that. We don't typically do pre-orders, because we don't like taking people's money until we have something to give them for it. However, we have had many similar rewards where we give a discount for owning a previous title in the series or sell a new title at an "upgrade" cost for previous owners. To take the example above, Ostfront was the sequel to Winterstorm and Kharkov just like Airland Battle is the sequal to European Escalation. We gave Ostfront free to previous owners. There are many instances where we've done a $10 or $15 discount for a sequel title.

Our store also has many cross-sell bundles, where if you buy more than one title from the same developer, you get a discount.

In addition to our six week holiday sale, where most of the catalog is 35% off, we have periodic blitzkrieg or themed sales and generally every newsletter (do you subscribe to those?) includes a discount coupon.

Incidentally, calling Wargame a "quirky little RTS" in no way changes the fact that it has a far larger development team and budget than any of our titles. RTS is a mainstream game style, not niche, and Wargame is very much a RTS (albeit a very good one with a historical setting).

Regards,

- Erik

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
The concept of actively reducing sales seems so very alien to me, especially when pretty much every other company (short of the manufacturers of luxury watches and supercars) works its butt off to increase sales figures.

That's because you're looking at this issue from a strictly selfish perspective.

Hardly. The only selfish thought I have is for the preservation of a hobby I love. Again, doing everything one can to keep sales low (and thus discouraging anyone new from joining the hobby) is as alien to me as saying that the reason you're keeping sales low is because otherwise your customers won't value your games. Does. Not. Compute.

In your view cheaper games means more for you, you could care less what it means for Matrix and their bottom line.

Absolutely not. I most certainly care for Matrix's bottom line, as that encourages them (and sustains them) to continue in the industry. But keeping 6 year old games at a price point where they'll sell none at all, when they could be reduced and both earn them more money and encourage more people (new and grognards alike) to try them makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. We've seen plenty of people step forward here and say "I'd love to buy more but I'm not risking $40 on a game long past its prime"...this is an indication to me that there's damage being done. By praising and supporting declining sales are you really helping Matrix?

But another line quoted from your post proves Matrix has it right from a business perspective:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
I spent far less on their 16 than I did on Matrix's four.

Even with their lineup of non-eye candy games most of the unwashed masses wouldn't look at let alone buy, they still generated more revenue from you with their business plan than Steam did with its plan.

It may have been more revenue, but I doubt it was more profit. I'll leave it at that unless you truly don't understand profit maximization.

Had they discounted their games you'd have gotten more (the only thing you really are concerned with here) but from a business perspective Matrix would have lost revenue.

Ascribing greed as sole (or any) motive for voicing my opinion here may make you feel better, but I'm sorry to confirm that you're incorrect.

Matrix is a niche company they can't grow their target audience non-stop simply by discounting games, there are only so many people who give a hoot about these kinds of games and it's a tiny tiny market. If they don't maximize their profitability on every transaction they'll go under, and then who would make these kinds of games?

This kind of thinking/argument is truly a self-fulfilling prophecy. To use an analogy (and absolutely steering clear of any political subject this time, we must keep the Triple Awesome Grape(tm) drinkers sedate) Joe Blow decides that they can only work minimum wage jobs, and that's the way it's going to be. You go up to Joe and try to show him that's a dead-end, and in the long run a really terrible life. You suggest alternatives (education, training, promotion), and Joe says "Nope, it's only minimum wage. You trying to convince me otherwise must mean you're after my job. How dare you be so selfish?"

There's only so long you can go before you realize that Triple Awesome Grape(tm) drinkers aren't unable to see the situation as it really is, they are just actively trying to avoid seeing it as it really is.

First I want to thank Iain for the response. Many business' would never lay out they're thinking no matter how harsh critics are and I really appreciate slitherine/matrix for being about as open as any business really could be.

I make youtube videos for fun on occasion and as others have complained in here I probably fall under the boring variety for YouTube videos though over the last few months I am going to try a few things and rather than just ad-libing everything try actual scripting and video editing to improve the quality of my videos.

That said I can say I've put a few videos up for some matrix titles and I've been contacted by somewhere between 5-10 people who've purchased Panzer Corps and roughly another 5-10 who purchased Scourge of War.

They may be more mainstream titles but like many have said I definitely think there are are many people out there who would definitely enjoy these games given proper exposure. Your probably right it might only be 1 outta 100 people who watch a video or read an article or even less who'd consider buying it but social media is a huge and cheap opportunity to draw people in.

I don't think more conventional advertising is the way to go, a huge problem big publishers are having is they are getting bloated and spending millions upon millions in advertising that they never recoup in sales. Sometimes the cheap and free advertising is the most effective form and matrix would do well to maximize advertising in these channels rather than traditional advertising channels which in my uninformed opinion is really dying (for the gaming industry anyway) just as the conventional sales channels have died.

How much would an advertiser need to pay to get 30,000 people to view their product? How much does it take to get that many views on youtube? Yes the percentage of purchaes from YouTube is probably lower but the exposure is far greater and when your trying to find new customers that's a key, not just high value purchasing customers but exposing yourself to people who didn't even know you existed. With pretty poor quality videos I've had over 150,000 views on mainly wargame videos, over 50,000 on Panzer Corps videos, over 20,000 on SOW, and many others have seen far greater success, my totals are peanuts in the YouTube world, the guy who runs out of eight has almost a million views primarily on wargames, another creator has over 250,000 views just on crusader kings videos. There is definitely an apatite for wargames its just about finding the audience and as social media grows so to should Slitherine/Matrix's presence on things like Twitter, Youtube, Twitch and other platforms.

The payoffs might not seem huge but it's a way to gain that community engagement that Iain was talking about as well as cheaply reaching out to new customers.

ORIGINAL: Vasquez

Wargaming is indeed a niche. The success of Panzer Corps means nothing since it is more or less a mainstream startegygame.

I am a supporter of the idea to lower the Prices of older titles of course. But would that get more blood into the genre? I doubt it. As someone mentioned take older SSG titles as example. They have fixed resolutions and they arent loooking very good on nowadays widescreen TFTs. Same goes for a lot older Matrix Games (Crown of Glory etc). I fear those games would scare more people away instead of broading the audience. Lowering the prices of those games would help us (wargaming geeks) but not the genre as a whole.

Two more interesting examples:

1. One year ago a retail gaming store (in germany) announced their cessation of Business. They had offered a half dozen boxed Version of Battles in Italy (German retail Version) for 1 (one) Euro each. 
One months later they had not sold one of them. So I bought them all and made a giveaway on my gaming site. We have some wargamers over there yes, but the majority are shooter fans (since 7idGaming is focused on e-sports and we are hosting servers for ArmaII and such games). Anyway. In short: No one wanted Battles in Italy. Neither for 1 Euro nor for free.

2. Some weeks ago a friend gave me five gamersgate keys for a almost brand new wargame. So I announced a contest again. The only requirement was to like the developers Facebook site. My article had 280 hits but only three guys were interested enough to like the page for a free copy.

The price alone does not turn average Jon Doe into a wargamer. 

Wasn't going to post again. However..the word selfish is another fallacy with regards to the motivations behind those who are on the side of lowering the price of old games. You truly believe Tim Stone wrote that article because he wants to save money and for selfish reasons???? If you don't believe thats his reason why on earth do you then say it's other peoples reason? Is Tim some special being who is the only one who can think beyond themselves and try and loom at something from outside the box so to speak. Sometimes people here show a total lack of imagination..though thats not surprising considering the genre..what with it being a geeky pursuit and will have it's fair share of people i.e men with Aspergers (I'm not knocking AS my daughter has just been diagnosed and my ex wife had it even though it's mainly something men have).

[quote]ORIGINAL: flanyboy
How much would an advertiser need to pay to get 30,000 people to view their product? How much does it take to get that many views on youtube? Yes the percentage of purchaes from YouTube is probably lower but the exposure is far greater and when your trying to find new customers that's a key, not just high value purchasing customers but exposing yourself to people who didn't even know you existed. With pretty poor quality videos I've had over 150,000 views on mainly wargame videos, over 50,000 on Panzer Corps videos, over 20,000 on SOW, and many others have seen far greater success, my totals are peanuts in the YouTube world, the guy who runs out of eight has almost a million views primarily on wargames, another creator has over 250,000 views just on crusader kings videos. There is definitely an apatite for wargames its just about finding the audience and as social media grows so to should Slitherine/Matrix's presence on things like Twitter, Youtube, Twitch and other platforms.


That is one of the biggest questions businesses have today: "How much of our limited resources should be allocated to advertising and marketing." This can be a make or break decision for any company. I own a small business that does less than $250,000 in service revenue a year (only two employees and myself) and I am very limited in what I can spend on advertising. I am constantly looking for inexpensive but effective ways to do this. For Matrix, this is even a bigger decision as they do their business on the web while my business is local and word of mouth. Large companies have marketing departments that constantly study the return for every dollar they spend verses actual business revenue increase. Small companies like Matrix just don't have the money to have large marketing departments. Giving large discounts on games will just decrease overall net income and add to the problem if they offer them too often.

One strategy could be to reach out to youtube commentators and reviewers and offer some kind of referral program. This probably sounds like I'm tooting my own horn but really has little to do with me, while I really like the example I'm going to provide and I've been asked if I want to participate, I have not participated in the below referral program.

Out of the Park Developments, the creators of Out of the Park Baseball which is really a modern day hybrid text simulation style baseball manager game, also does have a referral program. They operate in a very niche industry as well and according to everything they've been promoting they are having tremendous success on iOS as well but also breaking sales records on their PC game. They are pretty aggressive about promoting they're referral program for people who write articles and cover there games.

Of course that could question the validity of such reviews but it's still something I found unique and interesting. As I said they are a very niche game, probably very similar to matrix in that the market for people who want to basically run a baseball managerial sim where you can't play the game itself but merely manage situations and your rosters is very small compared to the modern PC game space.

A referral program for Slitherine/Matrix could be a good way to get more involvement and quality reporting from social media, of course that does need to be balanced against the potential risk for inaccurate and biased reporting merely to push people to buy games they may not really like where the reporters only want to make money.

Flanyboy I try to do that already in a non biased way on the FB page. It doesn't benefit me personally in anyway but a good game or possible good game needs to be brought to peoples attention. If someone buys the game because of something I mention I'd be very happy and even more so if they are new to this sort of wargaming.

I continue to think that the proper target audiences for wargame promotions are to be found on college campuses. There you've got the right age-group for future wargamers and the right intellect pool. I can never forget that that is just how SPI got me hooked, so many decades ago: They placed their games in the college bookstore. That's probably not doable anymore, but, somehow, that audience needs to be targeted.

Curtis I couldn't agree more.

wodin also with reference to your question about why not lower WITP or other games pricing earlier. I'll give you a good reason.

In the case of WITP its is close enough in scope to cannibalize WiTP-AE sales if WiTP was too cheap. Honestly it would probably make sense to stop selling WiTP all together before allowing it to be so cheap it steals AE sales. Of course there will be many people that will never buy AE or WiTP at the price it's at but its also likely that AE sales would be all together annihilate if WiTP was too cheap as people would buy WiTP and forgo AE. You could argue those people would never buy AE to began with but surely some would and it could totally destroy virtually all AE sales.

I don't really think that's a fair example, as AE is an upgraded version of the same game, more or less. Much different from lowering the price on titles that stand alone. A better way to go about that would be to offer a way to upgrade from WiTP to WiTP:AE (maybe they already do? the product page doesn't indicate so) which would give people a cheaper way to buy in, then upgrade later if they want. I mean, I haven't played it, but apparently if you love it as much as many do you would gladly fork over some more cash for AE.

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

wodin also with reference to your question about why not lower WITP or other games pricing earlier. I'll give you a good reason.

In the case of WITP its is close enough in scope to cannibalize WiTP-AE sales if WiTP was too cheap. Honestly it would probably make sense to stop selling WiTP all together before allowing it to be so cheap it steals AE sales. Of course there will be many people that will never buy AE or WiTP at the price it's at but its also likely that AE sales would be all together annihilate if WiTP was too cheap as people would buy WiTP and forgo AE. You could argue those people would never buy AE to began with but surely some would and it could totally destroy virtually all AE sales.

Here's a perfect example actually of what we did versus how it's understood now.

We offered an upgrade discount for WITP owners when WITP: AE was released. AE took years of additional development, but we offered an upgrade discount for over a year after release. When the upgrade discount ended, we made AE part of the holiday sale. The reason the original WITP is still for sale is that it has a different scale and a different scenario mix. We had requests from customers to keep it in the store and while we might have normally discontinued it, we listened and kept it active.

Regards,

- Erik

There are also several older games offered for free to get people into the hobby.

Do I detect a ravinhood/diablo in here?