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RE: Soviet defensive plans: 1942

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:58 pm
by gingerbread
Armaments is a worry, but I do seem to be slowly catching up (last 2 turns I have added 1,200 and 3,000 artillery pieces).

You do know about the 7/42 ARM sink, right? Here.

Interesting with a command cap overview. I don't bother trying to keep fronts not overloaded until '43 when the RC builds makes it possible to get them compliant. 10 armies worth of artillery divisions will be STAVKA attached, though that's late '42. There is no way to make room for them in the fronts.




RE: Soviet defensive plans: 1942

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:24 am
by Gabriel B.
On the support units :

I think more rocket regiments are advisable , they cost less than than corps howitzers
and only a bit more expensive than divisional howitzers, the soviets had the rough equivalent of 30 regiments in january 1942 and fewer artilery regiments than you have right now .

RE: Soviet defensive plans: 1942

Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 3:52 am
by loki100
ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

I would build historical number of tank corps , build them sleek 2/3 of Toe so they only use 900 trucks, but still retain
the high mobility. The truck situation gets out of hand in late 1942 but with the arival of lend and lease in 1943
things will improve.

As for cavalry , the soviet lost half of them in 1942 and did not rebuild any , the ones that survive are big drain in armaments
as it is , they do not have either the tank corps mobility or rifle corps staying power.

I think that if I lose Cavalry Corps I won't replace. My instinct is that, as bigbaba says, in 1942 they are actually more powerful than the Tank Corps (but slower), so I'll use them to try and keep any deep incursions in check and if they are lost as a result, well they are expendable.

Agree with the early building of Tank Corps, even if all they do is hit and run they have the MP to really make an axis player be cautious about their flanks and where they have to position the weaker units
ORIGINAL: bigbaba

amazing presentation mate.

about tank and cavalery corps:

thats a dilema for the russian player in 42. tank corps initial TOE is too weak to reopen pockets or counter attack in 42 and as gabe said cavalery corps lose power from 42 on. so the ability of the russians to survive 42 "pazner ball" seperates the good players from the average ones. 42 is when a good playing german player sets only tactical aims in 42 instead of strategic aims and concentrates all mobile forces in one sector and the russians have weak tank/cavalery forces and no rifle and mechanizied corps available.

Glad you found it useful, it certainly has made me think quite a lot about my post-blizzard planning. I think you are right that the best German strategy in 1942 is to chew up the Red Army in small bites, so the defense has to be to feed them enough to cause problems but manage to keep a decent force in being (especially not to lose any Guards formations).

But I am building more rifle brigades so I can replace my losses and AT units so they are well trained up by the time I need them

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

The 1943 cavalry corps is a monster, 333 cavalry squads +135 tanks, far stronger than any panzer division the germans have early war , but extremly expensive to keep 18 corps in the field .

I suspect I won't have all 18 by 1943, but have noticed (vs AI) that the mid-war version is good, especially if you adopt the Soviet Cav-Mech OOB using the SU-76s/85s as support units
ORIGINAL: jwolf

Loki, thanks for the summary and insight into STAVKA strategic planning for the next year. I'll be very interested to read the analogous planning from the German side once SigUp gets back into the game.

Its one advantage of a break in our game, lots of time to reflect and prepare forward plans. I guess like me, SigUp is probably making all sorts of guesses based around likely outcomes from the winter battles
ORIGINAL: gingerbread
Armaments is a worry, but I do seem to be slowly catching up (last 2 turns I have added 1,200 and 3,000 artillery pieces).

You do know about the 7/42 ARM sink, right? Here.

Interesting with a command cap overview. I don't bother trying to keep fronts not overloaded until '43 when the RC builds makes it possible to get them compliant. 10 armies worth of artillery divisions will be STAVKA attached, though that's late '42. There is no way to make room for them in the fronts.

Aye, its that upgrade cycle that I am worrying about. I'm moving almost all the factories west of the Volga to the Urals, so by March/April my industry should have recovered. I'm adding 2-3000 guns a week but still am negative on armaments at the moment.

I'm not that worried about marginal overloads, I think 5 armies can fit into a combat front without too much damage and then whats left either in Volga MD or directly connected with Stavka
ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

On the support units :

I think more rocket regiments are advisable , they cost less than than corps howitzers
and only a bit more expensive than divisional howitzers, the soviets had the rough equivalent of 30 regiments in january 1942 and fewer artilery regiments than you have right now .

Despite the armament problem, I've just started a new round of support units, all tucked away in the reserve MD formations so they can train up till I need them, or, as with the AT, am sure which sectors will really benefit from their allocation.

(T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 3:58 am
by loki100
19 – 25 December 1941: "When Winds take Forests in their Paws"

Update

After two weeks of the Soviet offensive, 19 December was the first time the Axis forces fell back on a substantial sector of the front. From the Voronezh-Kursk sector where SW Front was in operation to just north of Rostov, they gave up 30-40 miles.

The result was very limited fighting in the Ukrainian sector except around Voroshilovgrad where both sides traded attacks and several Rumanian divisions routed, leaving a substantial gap in the Axis lines.

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On the Orel-Kaluga sector, the Germans launched a number of localised counterattacks to free up trapped units before they fell back. However, this was the focal point of the Soviet offensive and Leningrad and Bryansk Fronts had the reserves and mobility to keep up the pressure.

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Stavka swung 1 Shock south away from Kaluga and prioritised the retaking of Orel. Although the Germans had fallen back to a prepared defense line and had mobile reserves, the power of 1st Shock [1] and the mobility of 34 and 50 Armies helped break open their new defensive positions.

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To the north of the Oka, West Front continued to press the Germans around Kaluga. Here, overextended formations were badly defeated in a counterattack but Stavka took the view that sustaining the operation would exhaust the Germans before all the Soviet reserves were committed.

To the north of Moscow, NW Front completed a major redeployment and took Povarovo in a bloody action while Kalinin Front continued to exert pressure on their flanks. Stavka instructions continued to stress the importance of reaching the Lama and thus relieving the threat to Moscow.

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(Artillery moving up to support 52 Army's offensive)

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Losses for both sides, from combat and the weather, remained high. Almost 82,000 Axis troops were killed or badly injured [2] for 40,000 Soviets. Tank losses were relatively even (55 Axis, 47 Soviet) and the Luftwaffe seemed to have been pulled back as VVS losses dropped to only 74 (for 23 Axis).

Commentary

More importantly, although Soviet industry was still struggling to replace tank and artillery losses, overall the Red Army grew by 140,000 and a net gain of 3000 guns.

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I am taking a gamble on the Volkhov Front sector and have removed the few high morale rifle and mountain divisions and all the support units (a lot have been deployed to fill out the recently arrived 3 and 4 Shock Armies). If the Axis attack it will fall apart (have lowered the TOE to 60% as well) but there is very little on that sector that really matters. I have to prioritise and that is the least important sector on the front.

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On the subject of the Shock Armies, here is the OOB for 1 and 2, I think it shows the advantage of trying to group your few decent units as well as using veteran rather than fresh support units. In effect 1 Shock is my ideal and 2 Shock has been put together using what was available (actually historically 2 Shock proved to be one of the worst units in the Red Army, never really recovering from its agony on the Volkhov and the fall out from Vlasov's defection).

In terms of elite formations, the VVS' contribution to the sustaining Soviet operations throughout the period from June was acknowledged by awarding Guards status to 2 squadrons of ground attack aircraft.

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(Su-2s from 1 GshAP regiment)

Stavka was waiting for the outcome of the battles around Moscow before the RKKA would be rewarded with its first Guards regiments.

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(shows the units I hope to nurse to Gds status over the winter battles. A few have lost too many times to make it)

[1] – I think this really reinforces the argument that it is a good idea to gather up the higher morale Siberian formations into a single army. In addition, almost all the support units were well trained, having been transferred to Stavka in the summer of 1941 rather than expended in a variety of defensive battles.
[2] – 76,000 disabled, I presume this is mostly a side effect of the blizzard?


RE: (T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:23 am
by bigbaba
looking at the battle results in which you mauled his divisions shows us that axis units in clear and unfortified areas are punching balls for a good soviet player. his biggest mistake is to let you attack him in the open without any defensive preperations. that means even bigger german loses and free guard divisions for you to play with in 42.

in my own game as axis against bomazz (?) he stoppd me well before moscow and has very little loses (2 millions) so i decided to stop pushing foreward in winter (just attacks to get moral and lower his units moral) and begin the creation of a fort line with every possible terrain defensive advantage to have a level 2 fort line as fallback line.


RE: (T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 11:56 am
by Oshawott
his biggest mistake is to let you attack him in the open without any defensive preperations.

Agree with this assessment. As soon as Axis troops are in level 2/3 fortifications or cities/urban hexes it gets quite tough for the Russians. It certainly is not possible to just do hasty attacks.

Sigups counterattacks are very good. Lots of routed units.

RE: (T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:18 am
by Oshawott
I just had the same problem with my IL-2 "upgrading" to Yak-1. Of course the AI chose my best air unit with 450+ kills for this. [:D] I think the upgrade logic is a little bit too random.

RE: (T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:55 am
by morvael
ORIGINAL: Oshawott
I think the upgrade logic is a little bit too random.

Not for long...

RE: (T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 1:30 pm
by GamesaurusRex
ORIGINAL: morvael
ORIGINAL: Oshawott
I think the upgrade logic is a little bit too random.

Not for long...

[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

Nuff said.

RE: (T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:20 pm
by Oshawott
Not for long...

Good news! [&o]

RE: (T27) 19 – 25 December 1941

Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 2:13 pm
by loki100
ORIGINAL: bigbaba
looking at the battle results in which you mauled his divisions shows us that axis units in clear and unfortified areas are punching balls for a good soviet player. his biggest mistake is to let you attack him in the open without any defensive preperations. that means even bigger german loses and free guard divisions for you to play with in 42.

in my own game as axis against bomazz (?) he stoppd me well before moscow and has very little loses (2 millions) so i decided to stop pushing foreward in winter (just attacks to get moral and lower his units moral) and begin the creation of a fort line with every possible terrain defensive advantage to have a level 2 fort line as fallback line.
ORIGINAL: Oshawott
his biggest mistake is to let you attack him in the open without any defensive preperations.

Agree with this assessment. As soon as Axis troops are in level 2/3 fortifications or cities/urban hexes it gets quite tough for the Russians. It certainly is not possible to just do hasty attacks.

Sigups counterattacks are very good. Lots of routed units.

While SigUp may have a different view, I'm starting to wonder if his victory at Rzhev and reaching the Moskva-Volga canal was less of a gain than it appeared. Added to my counterattacks around Tula, and I think he is now badly stretched around Moscow and the only way he can keep a solid line is by committing everything. As in the last update, it was clear from air recon, that he had used up all his reserves that were sitting around north and west of Moscow.

Now it depends on his plans for 1942. If he's after Moscow, I guess it makes sense to try and hold me as far east as he can so he has a good jump off position, if he is planning to go for industry, population, VP in the south, he may be as well to give me what I am fighting for and shorten his lines.
ORIGINAL: Oshawott

I just had the same problem with my IL-2 "upgrading" to Yak-1. Of course the AI chose my best air unit with 450+ kills for this. [:D] I think the upgrade logic is a little bit too random.
ORIGINAL: morvael
ORIGINAL: Oshawott
I think the upgrade logic is a little bit too random.
Not for long...

Thats a relief. I tend to leave on the auto-upgrade as mostly it works out ok and saves on AP, but that one stood out, especially as I was trying to find my nice shiny new IL-2 Gds formation.

T28 (25 – 31 December)

Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 2:24 pm
by loki100
25 – 31 December: I can look? - Can't I?

The final week of December saw both sides exchanging attacks, and in some sectors the Axis forces starting to fall back.

Behind the lines, Soviet partisans hit their rail nets around Minsk, Velikie Luki and cut all the lines across the Dniepr from Kiev to Cherkassy.

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However, in the north, Stavka ordered a switch of tactics with elements of the Leningrad network ordered to attack Finnish units around Povlovo. Using hit and run tactics and selecting isolated formations, by the end of the week, the Axis had lost 423 men for no losses amongst the partisans [1]. Even if Soviet forces in the north were on the defensive and starved of resources, it was a useful reminder to the Finns that Leningrad had not been forgotten.

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On the main battle front, the pattern and tempo of combat varied from sector to sector. North of Moscow, the Germans retook Povarovo from 52 Army but in doing so they had to commit all their reserves.

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In consequence North West Front's 22 and 55 Armies went over to the offensive around Klin threatening the flanks of the German forces committed at Povarovo. Kalinin Front continued to probe for weak spots and prevent the Germans releasing formations to deal with either NW or Leningrad Fronts.

In the course of these operations, 20 Army caught elements of 38 Infantry Corps off guard, not only breaking the German lines but being able to commit 92 Tank Brigade into the gap. This overran a hastily constructed German fortified zone and forced several Luftwaffe airbases to evacuate. For the first time, Kalinin Front had broken into the German rear.

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Western Front mostly remained on the defensive after German counterattacks drove back 3 and 10 Armies from around Kaluga.

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However, south of Kaluga, Leningrad and Bryansk Fronts continued to press the Germans back. 1st Shock reached the outskirts of Peremyshl and 2 Shock threatened Belev.

The main action took place around Orel. The 25th saw a heavy German counterattack that drove in the advanced guards probing for crossings of the Zusha

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However, the full weight of 34, 43 and 50 Armies fell on the Germans almost reaching the outskirts of Orel. Among their problems was 10 Panzer was badly handled on the approach to Orel, leaving 30 German tanks burning in the snow covered fields.

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(Soviet cavalry passing a destroyed Pzr III near Orel)

The only thing that stood between them and disaster was the defense by their 4 Mountain Division south of Orel where two sequential Soviet assaults were driven back.

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[2]

On the Kharkov sector the Germans fell back again, but first launched a series of counterattacks on SW Front's spearheads. As a result, SW Front opted to rest and consolidate on its current lines rather than carry on pursuing the retreating Germans.

By contrast, the Voroshilovgrad sector saw both sides fully committed.

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German counterattacks took Rodakovo and Lutugino, but again they had to draw in their reserves for this operation. In consequence, 9, 18 and 54 were able to make significant gains and inflict heavy losses on the mostly Rumanian forces in this sector.

Around Rostov, both sides remained mostly on the defensive. Caucasus Front lacked the power to dislodge the substantial German forces on the lower Don, but Stavka hoped this sector might be abandoned if the offensive to the north continued to make steady gains.

OOB

By the end of 1941, the Red Army had just over 6 million men, almost 60,000 guns, 4,000 tanks and 6,500 aircraft in European Russia.

Image

Of these, 1.6 million were in fresh formations forming up in the rear (600,000 directly linked to Stavka and the rest in the 4 Military Districts),1.6 million were in the 4 Fronts in action around Moscow (NW, Kalinin, Western, Leningrad), 1 million were in the northern Ukraine (Bryansk and SW) and 1.4 in the southern Ukraine and Caucasus (Southern, Trans Cauc, Cauc) [3]. Volkhov front had 400,000 covering the front from Kalinin to Lake Onega in the Arctiv.

Review

By the end of the fourth week of the Soviet counteroffensive for all the victories and losses inflicted, very little ground had been retaken.

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Ironically, the largest territorial gain had been by SW Front where very little actual fighting had taken place. For all the victories around Moscow, the Germans were still firmly lodged to the north of the city, Kaluga was a major bastion and while the victories at Orel were welcome, they did little to convince Stavka that the city was safe.

However, there was some evidence that the Germans would struggle to defend their current lines. Their counterattacks around Orel and at Povarovo had stripped them of their operational reserves, allowing both NW and Bryansk Fronts to make significant gains.

Losses over the 4 weeks were heavy for both sides. The Soviets had lost 155,000 men, 640 tanks (half in the last week alone) and 550 aircraft. Axis losses were 267,000 men, 330 tanks and 140 aircraft. More importantly, the Red Army could replace its losses. In the 4 weeks it had grown by 330,000 men and maintained tank and aircraft numbers, and, despite production problems, had added 9,000 artillery pieces.

The Axis had been reduced by 300,000 men (so effectively no replacements?), 1,000 guns and 100 tanks.

Soviet production was still badly disrupted by the evacuations in the summer and autumn. However, almost all factories originally west of the Volga were now relocated to the Urals [4].

Aircraft production remained high and 550 Hurricanes and P40s had been received via lend-lease. Tank production was more problematic and only limited lend-lease was being received. Of these the Valentines were proving their value unlike the Matildas.

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(Hurricanes near Moscow)

In general armaments, and specifically artillery, were the main problem. Manpower reserves were adequate, even given the build up of forces for the spring and summer 1942 battles and truck reserves were dropping but still sufficient for current operations.

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Commentary (still fussing about 1942)

One thing I am trying to do is to impose order on my rear area and think in terms of which units exist for which purpose. I have basically four types.

First, is a collection of rifle divisions that I am using to replace low morale front line units. These are effectively being rotated into and out of the combat armies and attached to whichever MD makes most sense. While rebuilding their morale, they are of course building up my rear defenses.

Second are a number of armies, some fully formed, some slowly filling out, and attached to either Moscow or Volga MD, What I basically intend to do is to slot these into the front at the end of the Winter battles so that my main units (Leningrad Front and the various Cavalry Armies can be pulled back into reserve). That way, if, as I expect, my front is breached and pocketed, what is lost is run of the mill rifle divisions, not my better units.

Third are a collection of armies directly under Stavka. At the moment this is 3 and 4 Shock and a freshly raised combined arms army. These are going to be my strategic reserve, and I'll use them to organise the first wave of tank corps (till the Tank Armies can be used).

Fourth is the deep rear. Over the last 2 turns, I've raised about 20 rifle brigades and will add a lot more over January-February. These have 2 roles. One is to build up a final defensive belt in some key sectors, such as Stalingrad and along the Oka and the rail lines running east from Moscow. The other is that as armies are chewed up in pockets, they are a ready made set of replacements which can be fed into the front, keeping my basic plan of keeping my best formations out of the front line.

Of course, always so much easier to write than keep to, but in addition to using the MD for a geographical split, they are also each playing a different role in terms of how I plan to use the unit in the longer term.

[1] – pretty wierd, I'll admit
[2] – this captured my basic problem, if I keep enough back for an effective exploitation I am on the margins of victory/defeat in the initial attack. Here, if I'd committed all 4 Cavalry Corps in one go, I would have taken their position but I hoped that 2 would be enough and I could then take advantage with fresh forces.
[3] – roughly half of the Trans-Caucasus Front formations are locked for another turn on the Iranian border. I guess they will be in combat by the third week of January, which has some bearing on my plans for the offensive in the Stalino-Rostov sector (especially as there are no Panzers in that sector).
[4] – all I have to move are a cluster of armament and truck factories in Stalingrad. Even the 1-2 point residual factories have all been shifted eastwards.


T29 (1 - 6 January)

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:03 am
by loki100
1-6 January 1942: You are not so fair, Midnight

The arrival of the new year saw heated debates in the Stavka. Vatunin (NW Front), Koniev (Kalinin) and Mertsekov (Western) were all accused of treachery and sabotaging the offensive [1]. All argued that the Germans had fully committed all their available forces and that there was no scope to carry on the offensive. Around Klin, German counterattacks had regained the ground recently taken by 55 Army leaving 52 Army badly exposed at Ilksha.

After a bad tempered discussion, all three Fronts were ordered over to the defense. Western Front was ordered to use 4 Army to cover Kaluga and to use 10 Army to allow 1 Shock to rest and redeploy.

The Soviet command was not just worried at the stalling of the counterattack but also that German determination to hold the Kalinin-Klin sector meant they intended to use this sector as the base for a renewed attempt to seize Moscow [2].

However, even as the rows raged in the Kremlin, the war carried on.

Orel was now designated the main Soviet target and partisan units hit the German rail network around Bryansk even as the Germans themselves again attacked Bryansk Front's spearheads before pulling back. At the same time, the exhausted units of 1st Shock faced their first defeats as a German offensive forced them back from the Oka

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In the south, the Germans committed 47 Panzer Corps from their reserve (11 and 17Pzr, 25 Mot), stalling the Soviet offensive around Voroshilovgrad. In addition, a surprise attack across the lower Don, drove back elements of 49 Army.

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Despite these setbacks, the Soviet offensive continued to drive forward around Orel.

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Leningrad Front pulled 1 Shock into reserve but 2 Shock made steady gains, badly handling 24 Panzer Corp's 16 Motorised Division.

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(elements of 1 Shock have their first break from combat for a month)

To the south, Bryansk Front continued to drive deep into the German lines. In particular, 34 Army exacted brutal revenge for the successes of 4 Mountain Division in the previous battles. Hit by 3 cavalry corps, supported by a massive commitment of the VVS, even such well trained troops broke and ran.

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(T-60 in action in support of 34 Army)

With the German reserves estimated to be fully committed to the Moscow battles and around Voroshilovgrad, SW Front returned to the offensive. 5 and 26 Armies broke the sector held by 17 Infantry Corps (a mixture of German and Hungarian formations) opening up the potential for a major victory in the Kursk-Orel-Bryansk sector.

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The flank of SW Front's renewed offensive was covered by S Front's 51 Army. Taking advantage of the commitment of the German armour reserves at Voroshilovgrad, elements of 55 Infantry Corps were scattered and pressure applied to the weak line of infantry divisions trying to hold the open Steppe.

Overall

The Germans paid a high price for their armoured counterattacks. They lost just over 80,000 men, 120 tanks and 50 aircraft. Soviet losses were 40,000 men, 124 tanks and 200 aircraft.

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Overall, a net of 100,000 men and 3,000 guns were added to the Red Army despite these losses.

[1] This was the charge levelled at the commanders of the Volkhov and Leningrad Fronts in reality, combined with Mekhlis leading a NKVD investigation.
[2] I can't think of any other reason for the substantial commitment of German forces NW of Moscow, there must be a complete Panzer Army maintaining their defense on that sector.

RE: T29 (1 - 6 January)

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:37 am
by morvael
Lovely AAR. I like that the ground gains are reasonable and that the Germans stand fast in some places.

I have to update cpt flam's/mine AAR, but due to all efforts (read: free time) being concentrated on 1.08, I can't do that now.

RE: T29 (1 - 6 January)

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:08 am
by jwolf
The winter fighting is brutal, very heavy on both sides.  As a spectator, I love the give and take, but it must be nervewracking for both players!

SigUp has been able to do some counterattacks even in December; I am wondering what his capabilities will be in January when his CVs will start to improve.  For that matter, you're probably wondering the same thing. [;)]

The Axis forces do start to get some serious reinforcements but I think they won't get to the front lines until some time in February.  Not sure about the timing.  But I think the "happy days" of the December offensive are over.

Are you getting many (any?) guard units for all your troubles?

RE: T29 (1 - 6 January)

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:07 pm
by gingerbread
Looking very good. 6M+ points to 7.5M when the mud clears, and that should do it.

Q: Are you getting any positive contribution from the Tank Brigades? I use very few in action, but you seem to be doing fine. The real test will be if your vehicle pool can cover needs in late 1942.


BTW, it will be very expensive to shift Tank Corps from the Shock Armies to Tank Armies if you follow through with that idea. I suggest you do a trial run in a '42 scenario sand box game to see what I mean for yourself.

RE: T29 (1 - 6 January)

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:35 pm
by loki100
ORIGINAL: morvael

Lovely AAR. I like that the ground gains are reasonable and that the Germans stand fast in some places.

I have to update cpt flam's/mine AAR, but due to all efforts (read: free time) being concentrated on 1.08, I can't do that now.

I think the mild winter rules are brilliant in their impact ... no thats not true [8D] I'm cursing like mad that I can't drive all the way to Smolensk and beyond.

I did a fair bit of testing with AI games, and realised that come Jan the Soviet offensive tends to stall apart from where the Germans are weak. But this is far more interesting than the old routine of 'run 2 hexes per turn', it'll be interesting to see the fall out though. So far SigUp has rarely let me play with the axis allied units, but then he has absorbed both battle and attrition damage on his Germans. So there maybe a longer term price for stalling me so effectively?
ORIGINAL: jwolf

The winter fighting is brutal, very heavy on both sides. As a spectator, I love the give and take, but it must be nervewracking for both players!

SigUp has been able to do some counterattacks even in December; I am wondering what his capabilities will be in January when his CVs will start to improve. For that matter, you're probably wondering the same thing. [;)]

The Axis forces do start to get some serious reinforcements but I think they won't get to the front lines until some time in February. Not sure about the timing. But I think the "happy days" of the December offensive are over.

Are you getting many (any?) guard units for all your troubles?

I fear that somewhere he’ll go back on the offensive (if he wants to). I’ve just spent time on the last turn putting NW Front back onto a defensive footing (Kalinin and Western were already deployed that way) of 3 division in the front, something behind and then another decent stack (so as to minimise routs).

I still feel in control of the main dynamics at the moment, from email chat, a lot of his attacks are a combination of trying to recover morale and for tactical reasons. Whether he decides he really wants to determine the overall flow of the battle I’m not so sure. I suspect that last turn was the first time with decent attack CVs and I think it showed with forcing 1 Shock back from the Oka (ie he attacked over the river). We both seem to be living on the margins with lots of 2-1s, but I think that fatigue is starting to play a role on my side.

In truth, come Feb I was planning to go back over to a strategic defence, my instinct is if I made any gains, they’d only create the sort of salient that will be a death trap come the clear weather.

Here’s a list of all my infantry and cavalry divisions with more than 4 wins. I think I’ll certainly get some Gds Cavalry Corps, but I suspect that Gds Inf will be thin on the ground, especially as a few with a decent win rate have also had quite a beating.


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ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Looking very good. 6M+ points to 7.5M when the mud clears, and that should do it.

Q: Are you getting any positive contribution from the Tank Brigades? I use very few in action, but you seem to be doing fine. The real test will be if your vehicle pool can cover needs in late 1942.


BTW, it will be very expensive to shift Tank Corps from the Shock Armies to Tank Armies if you follow through with that idea. I suggest you do a trial run in a '42 scenario sand box game to see what I mean for yourself.

That’s my hope, if I can get up to 7m+ and a positive flow on armaments (I don’t have many more shell formations to come back), then I think I can absorb whatever he manages in 1942, even if it is a bit grim. For a German player, even if you know you still have the qualitative edge, this must be disheartening to see the Red Army grow pretty much unhindered from December – May.

Most of my main armies have 2-3 tank brigades and I seem to be doing well with reserve reactions. I don’t any will reach Gds status, and I have a load in the rear just building forts. Don’t see any sense having to pay APs to pull them out of an army to form up into corps.

I was a bit unclear about what I’m doing with the reserves. The 2 Shock armies are going to be basically infantry, but I’ve raised a fresh combined arms army and I’ll load that with cavalry and tank corps. This seems to get some tank corps into operation quicker than waiting for tank armies to appear but most corps will not be allocated until those armies exist.

I’ve found this works reasonably well in terms of staggering the conversion of brigades to tank corps, but having something for counterattacking in case of good weather in May.


Overall, this feeds into a discussion of whether or not the game is balanced. Its pretty clear that a very competent Soviet player can get into a winning position by this stage, with the Axis looking for narrow opportunities. But I feel (hope) this particular game is at a decent balance. We both seem worried about where we are, me that my main counterattack seems to be over, SigUp that he has expended too much in stopping me.

The mild winter really improves the feel of the game, and I think out balance factors are sort of working – though I think I’d offer to cut the Soviet logistic value in a future PBEM rather than morale as such, as I’m slowly realising that has a secondary effect (and yep, I know we were warned) of cutting down my CVs, which I think is one reason why I’m finding it hard to keep up the pressure. But on balance, it does restrain my ability to counterattack, so it may work out pretty well.

RE: T29 (1 - 6 January)

Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 3:02 am
by morvael
Interesting, in the AI vs AI games of Moscow scenario that I did to test the new rules, January and February were even worse for the Germans than December. At that point they were really bleed dry by the weather damage and reduced resupply and reinforcement rates and increased CV really didn't help them a lot. Of course the AI wasn't properly using city and fort shelters.

I have also put some of my tank (14 out of 26) and cav corps (all 20) in regular armies, wherever the fighting was hardest in 1942 (that means from Tula south with 1 exception). This worked well on defense (it's good to have a strong mobile unit to beef that weakest hex or recapture important hex), but on the attack I would now like to have more specialized armies and it's very hard (AP cost) to do so, so I barely managed to transform one Shock army to an all-cavalry force and the tank corps are still where they started. Brigades are good for reserve activations due to +1 initiative bonus they have, but late in the war there is not enough medium tanks to keep extra brigades (or battalions). Instead a lot of light SU brigades can be built.

RE: T29 (1 - 6 January)

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:53 pm
by loki100
ORIGINAL: morvael

Interesting, in the AI vs AI games of Moscow scenario that I did to test the new rules, January and February were even worse for the Germans than December. At that point they were really bleed dry by the weather damage and reduced resupply and reinforcement rates and increased CV really didn't help them a lot. Of course the AI wasn't properly using city and fort shelters.

I have also put some of my tank (14 out of 26) and cav corps (all 20) in regular armies, wherever the fighting was hardest in 1942 (that means from Tula south with 1 exception). This worked well on defense (it's good to have a strong mobile unit to beef that weakest hex or recapture important hex), but on the attack I would now like to have more specialized armies and it's very hard (AP cost) to do so, so I barely managed to transform one Shock army to an all-cavalry force and the tank corps are still where they started. Brigades are good for reserve activations due to +1 initiative bonus they have, but late in the war there is not enough medium tanks to keep extra brigades (or battalions). Instead a lot of light SU brigades can be built.

thats good to hear, where I can attack (ie where my best infantry and cavalry are), I'm handing out a lot of damage, but I'm struggling to attack around Moscow and I can't (and don't really want to) keep up with a steady retreat in the northern Ukraine.

I do find that you are constantly balancing building formations to reflect current needs with what are the desired allocations into the longer term. Hopefully I can avoid needing my tank corps till July apart from a few that I allocate to normal combined arms armies.

Certainly post-43 a tank army built around 3 corps (whether all tank or with a mech corps) and those SU brigades is pretty effective as you have a very high chance of obtaining reserve activations

T30 (8-15 January)

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:59 pm
by loki100
8-15 January 1942 "It has no Future"

The second week of January saw all the fighting concentrated either around Orel or in the Rostov sector. North of Kaluga, both sides remained on the defensive as Stavka made preparations for a new offensive once key formations had disengaged and had chance to recover their losses.

However, the Kursk-Orel-Tula sector saw continued combat. The Germans again hit at Soviet spearheads in order to free trapped units and then fell back.

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However, around Belev, Leningrad Front committed both Shock Armies in echelon. 2nd Shock drove 13 Pzr Division from the town and secured a bridgehead over the Oka.

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1st Shock then moved past the burning houses, wrecked vehicles and corpse strewn roads to drive back 10 and 16 Motorised Divisions.

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(Knocked out Stug IIIs near Belev)

At the same time, Stavka ordered a paratroop drop in an attempt to cut off the German retreat routes. Unfortunately, being dropped in a blizzard meant that the paras were too disrupted to hold their ground, even if it did add to the chaos behind the German lines.

To the south of Orel, Bryansk Front continued to probe for weak spots, hitting the German 4th Mountain Division again near the small town of Zmievka.

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From Kursk to Voroshilovgrad, the Germans fell back and in most sectors SW and S Front were content to move up more defensible lines. In a few sectors, Soviet cavalry were able to catch the retreating Germans inflicting heavy losses.

However, the Rostov sector saw more combat. 9 and 18 Armies failed to clear a German strongpoint at Lisichansk but 61 Army was able to exploit a gap in the German front around Sverdlosk. To the south, 67 Army made some gains just north of Rostov even as 40 Army deployed as a reserve, using formations released from the Caucasus.

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(T-34s exploiting gap in the German lines north of Sverdlosk)

In the Crimea, Stavka tried to relieve the siege of Sevastopol by capturing Armyansk and cutting their main rail line.

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Losses for both sides reflected the more limited nature of the actual fighting. The Axis forces lost 60,000 men, 60 tanks and 25 aircraft for Soviet losses of 26,000 men, 125 tanks and 150 aircraft.

Overall, the Red Army grew by 100,000 men, 2,000 guns and 50 tanks.
The three reserve military districts had almost 750,000 men as fresh formations were being organised in the rear. The Moscow sector (NW, Reserve, Western and Moscow) grew from 1.7 million to 1,8 million men. Bryansk and Leningrad Fronts remained the same with just under 950,000 men and the four Ukrainian Fronts (SW, S, Cauc, Trans-Cauc) had around 1.5 million men.

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