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Poland 1939 "Plan Zachód" (Plan West)


Note: No copy has been preserved of "Plan Wschód" (Plan East) which was the plan for Polish defense against the USSR.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Poland 1939 "Plan Zachód" (Plan West)


Note: No copy has been preserved of "Plan Wschód" (Plan East) which was the plan for Polish defense against the USSR

warspite1

Yes, its a little remembered fact that in 1934 Poland and Germany actually signed a non-aggression pact. The Soviet Union was perceived as the biggest threat to Poland.... until of course Hitler had worked his way around to Poland via the Rhineland, Austria and Czechoslovakia...

In the context of WIF of course, the plan is irrelevant anyway, but would be interesting to have known how they intended to meet Soviet aggression while friends with Germany in the west.

Let me put it this way. I don't have a house rule which states that units have to be placed in the east. But I don't like a house rule which forces all Polish units to be placed in the west too. It is at the discretion of the CW player to set up the Poles. If the German set up is such, that the Poles don't stand a chance of surviving the first turn, why not intern the Polish HQ and the division? It is perfectly allright for me.

The fact that there are two Polish corps missing in the setup (if you look at sheer numbers), to me represent the fact that a lot of Polish soldiers were in the Eastern part of the country. Either being assembled for war duty, or already in service, we don't know. There simply isn't enough information available to get from what units were assembled in the east in the first week of the war. That Eastern Poland can be grabbed by the USSR by only putting one division in it in WiF, is a little strange to me, compared by the force that the USSR used to capture the area. Fact is also that those one million man never left Eastern Poland too. They were still there when the Germans attacked...

If you would want to recreate this, than the Soviets should have at least 5 corps in Poland. That, however, would make the whole game system go wrong, I believe, unless those five corps would be available from the start (and not be part of the reserves anymore). Still, I believe to recreate the Soviet attack on Eastern Poland isn't going to contribute to the game at all...

Sorry I thought you were saying there was a problem with setting up all Polish units in the west in Post 130 and you didn't agree with the rule. I made the jump that you wanted a house rule to stop that. My mistake. Personally I have absolutely no issue with the Polish set up rules and OOB.

As to the argument about units in the east, the fact is I have never read a book that suggests there were anything other than KOP units on the eastern borders. Even if there were (i.e. units forming), they would have been rushed west ASAP as replacements for units being torn to pieces (as indeed some of the KOP units did) - not sit around in the east while the western front disintegrates.

To base a view, largely on the strength of the WIF OOB - given that they are not accurate (and don't pretend to be in the name of playability) is probably not wise. Just look at some of the crappy German aircraft and the factors they are given in the name of play balance, Mexican ships that did not exist in WWII etc etc!! [;)]

But clearly we are not going to agree so probably best call it a halt and agree to disagree [:)].

ORIGINAL: warspite1
To base a view, largely on the strength of the WIF OOB - given that they are not accurate (and don't pretend to be in the name of playability) is probably not wise. Just look at some of the crappy German aircraft and the factors they are given in the name of play balance, Mexican ships that did not exist in WWII etc etc!! [;)]

Indeed! The German aircraft has gotten way to crappy factors in WIF.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1
To base a view, largely on the strength of the WIF OOB - given that they are not accurate (and don't pretend to be in the name of playability) is probably not wise. Just look at some of the crappy German aircraft and the factors they are given in the name of play balance, Mexican ships that did not exist in WWII etc etc!! [;)]

Indeed! The German aircraft has gotten way to crappy factors in WIF.

Well. I once stated that I think it is a pity that "planes in flames" where the additional aircraft counters are concerned isn't put in as an optional rule. This makes the Luftwaffe in WiF always up to date, since there are too many planes available at start in the force pool. Even with the scrap rule not in place, you can easily ditch those obsolete planes in the reserve pool (and I hate playing without pilots...). However, if you look at the historical facts, the Luftwaffe had about 50% obsolete planes flying (the He-52 and the Arado's were still being used in Poland) in september 1939. Not having a lot of planes available to build, also makes the battlefield more interesting, I believe. But that choice was made before I joined. I should have been around sooner, where this is concerned.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1
To base a view, largely on the strength of the WIF OOB - given that they are not accurate (and don't pretend to be in the name of playability) is probably not wise. Just look at some of the crappy German aircraft and the factors they are given in the name of play balance, Mexican ships that did not exist in WWII etc etc!! [;)]

Indeed! The German aircraft has gotten way to crappy factors in WIF.

warspite1

Actually I was thinking the other way around. The Me-210? He-177?

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1
To base a view, largely on the strength of the WIF OOB - given that they are not accurate (and don't pretend to be in the name of playability) is probably not wise. Just look at some of the crappy German aircraft and the factors they are given in the name of play balance, Mexican ships that did not exist in WWII etc etc!! [;)]

Indeed! The German aircraft has gotten way to crappy factors in WIF.

Well. I once stated that I think it is a pity that "planes in flames" where the additional aircraft counters are concerned isn't put in as an optional rule. This makes the Luftwaffe in WiF always up to date, since there are too many planes available at start in the force pool. Even with the scrap rule not in place, you can easily ditch those obsolete planes in the reserve pool (and I hate playing without pilots...). However, if you look at the historical facts, the Luftwaffe had about 50% obsolete planes flying (the He-52 and the Arado's were still being used in Poland) in september 1939. Not having a lot of planes available to build, also makes the battlefield more interesting, I believe. But that choice was made before I joined. I should have been around sooner, where this is concerned.

I agree on the fact that Germany used a lot of old aircraft when they invaded Poland but most of them was for training purposes. Some for recognisance. Very few had front line duties. How many modern aircraft had RAF in September '39?

The Luftwaffe actually in '39 and '40 had the most modern airplanes in % of their whole assets.
The RAF even in '40 had many obsolete aircrafts (albeit scattered in the colonies for the most, the obsolete ones).

I think in general the German AF is pretty underrated (But the Italian one is overrated too - I believe it's for balance sake more than anything else.)