RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:59 pm
One day at a time in order to better understand what their different options were?so I need to find the best way to present this
Page 8 of 20
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:01 pm
I find it fun that those ships look very pleasing to my eyes. [:D]overview of the Ugly Sisters
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:06 pm
With the war only two months old we have already come across two of the Town-class cruisers of the Royal Navy: Southampton was hit by a bomb (which failed to explode until it had exited the ship), while the newest vessel of the class, HMS Belfast, captured what proved to be the largest German blockade-runner of the war. During November she hit a magnetic mine laid by U-21 and the resulting blast broke the cruiser’s back, resulting in repair work that lasted into 1942. We shall be hearing more from these ships regularly as the war progresses so here is a closer look at the ten ships of the class.
Royal Navy. The Town-class cruisers
Type I (Southampton-class)
Birmingham – Completed November 1937
Glasgow - Completed September 1937
Newcastle – Completed March 1937
Sheffield - Completed August 1937
Southampton – Completed March 1937
Type II (Gloucester-class)
Gloucester – Completed January 1939
Liverpool - Completed November 1938
Manchester – Completed August 1938
Type III (Edinburgh-class)
Belfast - Completed August 1939
Edinburgh - Completed July 1939
The Town-class consisted of ten ships that were built in three batches between 1934 and 1939. The first batch – the Southampton-class – represented a significant departure in cruiser design for the Royal Navy.
The need to save money in the post WWI-era had resulted in the series of naval arms limitation agreements that began with the 1922 Washington Treaty. This first treaty largely dealt with capital ship limitations and overall fleet sizes for the five nations that signed up to it (UK, USA, Japan, France and Italy). Subsequent treaties and revisions had imposed further restrictions upon warship construction and limitations on tonnage and armament. Whilst the UK’s financial position made such treaties desirable, they also created considerable headaches. One of the problems that needed solving was how to provide the Royal Navy with the number of cruisers it needed to safeguard the Empire, but at the same time, that would keep within the overall tonnage restrictions imposed. The answer was to build smaller than allowable ships; the British quickly ceased the building of large 8-inch gunned cruisers in favour of smaller 6-inch gunned vessels – thus more ships could be built for a set amount of tonnage.
There were two problems with the approach. Firstly not every navy subject to the treaty was always meticulous about actual tonnage vs stated tonnage and, secondly, potential enemies of Britain did not have the same need for numbers – and so could build larger, more powerful ships.
By 1934 the British felt they had to act – and it was the appearance of the Japanese Mogami-class cruisers that made the British conclude that they had no choice and would have to build some larger ships.
The Southamptons main armament was twelve 6-inch guns mounted in four triple turrets. It was felt that the more rapid firing 6-inch gun would be sufficient compensation against the slower firing 8-inch gunned ships that they may face.
Defensive armour was designed to stop 6-inch shells. Belt armour was a maximum of 4.5-inches with 2-inch maximum box protection around the machinery spaces and magazines. Deck armour was a maximum of 1.25-inches. Turret armour was 1-inch.
Secondary armament came in the form of four twin 4-inch quick firing guns. Two quadruple pompoms were provided together with two 0.5-inch machine guns. Two triple torpedo tubes were fitted and a catapult and hangar space for 2 aircraft (3 could be carried).
Top speed was a highly respectable 32 knots.
Differences between Types:
Type II – slightly more powerful machinery 82,500 vs 75,000 resulting in 0.5 knot additional top speed. Deck armour increased by 0.5-inches. Turret armour increased to a maximum 4-inches.
Type III – 80,000 SHP with top speed slightly slower than Type II ships. Two additional twin 4-inch turrets and octuple pompoms rather than quadruple. Box protection for the machinery spaces was removed and replaced with an extended belt and 3-inch protection over the magazines and 2-inches over the machinery spaces. Turret armour increased to a maximum 4-inches. Revision of the boiler, machinery and magazines resulted in possibly the ugliest British cruiser ever due to the funnels being set back!
The ships were originally to have been named after creatures from Greek and Roman mythology but the town (effectively important city) names that had been used - and proved popular - in WWI were adopted instead. Obvious missing names were Cardiff (existing C-class cruiser) and London (existing County-class).
Six of the ten ships were to survive the war. The four ships lost were: Edinburgh (Arctic), Gloucester, Manchester and Southampton (all Mediterranean).
HMS Sheffield. The Town-class cruisers – or at least Types I and II - were fine looking ships. The class gave excellent service to the Royal Navy during the Second World War and beyond.
HMS Belfast. Thanks to the positioning of the two funnels, the two Type III ships appeared to have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down….
HMS Belfast survives to this day and is now a museum ship berthed on the River Thames, near Tower Bridge and the Tower of London.
Sources:
Conways: All the World’s Fighting Ships 1922-1946
British Cruisers (Norman Friedman)
Royal Navy. The Town-class cruisers
Type I (Southampton-class)
Birmingham – Completed November 1937
Glasgow - Completed September 1937
Newcastle – Completed March 1937
Sheffield - Completed August 1937
Southampton – Completed March 1937
Type II (Gloucester-class)
Gloucester – Completed January 1939
Liverpool - Completed November 1938
Manchester – Completed August 1938
Type III (Edinburgh-class)
Belfast - Completed August 1939
Edinburgh - Completed July 1939
The Town-class consisted of ten ships that were built in three batches between 1934 and 1939. The first batch – the Southampton-class – represented a significant departure in cruiser design for the Royal Navy.
The need to save money in the post WWI-era had resulted in the series of naval arms limitation agreements that began with the 1922 Washington Treaty. This first treaty largely dealt with capital ship limitations and overall fleet sizes for the five nations that signed up to it (UK, USA, Japan, France and Italy). Subsequent treaties and revisions had imposed further restrictions upon warship construction and limitations on tonnage and armament. Whilst the UK’s financial position made such treaties desirable, they also created considerable headaches. One of the problems that needed solving was how to provide the Royal Navy with the number of cruisers it needed to safeguard the Empire, but at the same time, that would keep within the overall tonnage restrictions imposed. The answer was to build smaller than allowable ships; the British quickly ceased the building of large 8-inch gunned cruisers in favour of smaller 6-inch gunned vessels – thus more ships could be built for a set amount of tonnage.
There were two problems with the approach. Firstly not every navy subject to the treaty was always meticulous about actual tonnage vs stated tonnage and, secondly, potential enemies of Britain did not have the same need for numbers – and so could build larger, more powerful ships.
By 1934 the British felt they had to act – and it was the appearance of the Japanese Mogami-class cruisers that made the British conclude that they had no choice and would have to build some larger ships.
The Southamptons main armament was twelve 6-inch guns mounted in four triple turrets. It was felt that the more rapid firing 6-inch gun would be sufficient compensation against the slower firing 8-inch gunned ships that they may face.
Defensive armour was designed to stop 6-inch shells. Belt armour was a maximum of 4.5-inches with 2-inch maximum box protection around the machinery spaces and magazines. Deck armour was a maximum of 1.25-inches. Turret armour was 1-inch.
Secondary armament came in the form of four twin 4-inch quick firing guns. Two quadruple pompoms were provided together with two 0.5-inch machine guns. Two triple torpedo tubes were fitted and a catapult and hangar space for 2 aircraft (3 could be carried).
Top speed was a highly respectable 32 knots.
Differences between Types:
Type II – slightly more powerful machinery 82,500 vs 75,000 resulting in 0.5 knot additional top speed. Deck armour increased by 0.5-inches. Turret armour increased to a maximum 4-inches.
Type III – 80,000 SHP with top speed slightly slower than Type II ships. Two additional twin 4-inch turrets and octuple pompoms rather than quadruple. Box protection for the machinery spaces was removed and replaced with an extended belt and 3-inch protection over the magazines and 2-inches over the machinery spaces. Turret armour increased to a maximum 4-inches. Revision of the boiler, machinery and magazines resulted in possibly the ugliest British cruiser ever due to the funnels being set back!
The ships were originally to have been named after creatures from Greek and Roman mythology but the town (effectively important city) names that had been used - and proved popular - in WWI were adopted instead. Obvious missing names were Cardiff (existing C-class cruiser) and London (existing County-class).
Six of the ten ships were to survive the war. The four ships lost were: Edinburgh (Arctic), Gloucester, Manchester and Southampton (all Mediterranean).
HMS Sheffield. The Town-class cruisers – or at least Types I and II - were fine looking ships. The class gave excellent service to the Royal Navy during the Second World War and beyond.
HMS Belfast. Thanks to the positioning of the two funnels, the two Type III ships appeared to have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down….
HMS Belfast survives to this day and is now a museum ship berthed on the River Thames, near Tower Bridge and the Tower of London.
Sources:
Conways: All the World’s Fighting Ships 1922-1946
British Cruisers (Norman Friedman)
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:35 am
HMS Belfast. Thanks to the positioning of the two funnels, the two Type III ships appeared to have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down….
You liked that line from "Saving Private Ryan"?
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:14 am
warspite1ORIGINAL: jamesm
HMS Belfast. Thanks to the positioning of the two funnels, the two Type III ships appeared to have fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down….
You liked that line from "Saving Private Ryan"?
Is that where that came from? I didn't realise - but its a good saying [:)]
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:33 am
November 1939 (The U-boat War).
One of the battles that Donitz faced constantly with Hitler, and even the OKM, was that concerning the best employment of U-boats for maximum effect. Donitz was unequivocal in his belief that his U-boats should be in the Atlantic attacking convoys; it was the strangulation of trade that would hurt the British and, hopefully, take them out of the war.
However, on many occasions his U-boat force was tasked with support operations and special missions that took the boats away from the convoys. November 1939 saw this happening on a large scale. There were three reasons for this: 1. a number of boats were engaged in mining operations (more than usual as the OKM wanted ports mined as part of the planned German offensive against France), 2. the return to Germany of the Deutschland (see Post 137) and 3. The OKM were planning a breakout into the Atlantic by the Battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (see later).
In the case of the latter two operations, OKM wanted a U-boat force to assist both the return of the Panzerschiff and the breakout by the capital ships.
This meant that Donitz had just three boats available for duty in the North Atlantic – U-41 (Kapt. Gustav-Adolf Mugler), U-43 (Kapt. Wilhem Ambrosius) and U-49 (Kapt. Curt von Gossler). Note: by this time the restriction on French and British passenger ships had been removed as had a restriction pertaining to neutral tankers (except the US) which were thought to be UK bound.
On the 12th November, U-41 sunk a small British trawler and an 11,000 ton Norwegian tanker before Donitz ordered the boats south to the Bay of Biscay due to the atrocious weather conditions. Whilst there, U-41 accounted for a small British freighter and a French trawler, while U-43* accounted for three ships totalling almost 12,000 tons. Although U-49* only achieved one sinking, and was herself badly damaged and almost sunk, she did provide Donitz with a valuable piece of information. In evading a depth charge attack by HM destroyers Echo and Wanderer she dived to over 550 feet – way more than was believed possible – and importantly, deeper than the 500 feet maximum depth for British depth charges. U-43 was also damaged and forced to abort during this patrol. U-53, which we had last heard about in September (see Post 56), was ordered to the Mediterranean in October but had not been able to negotiate the Straits. She too was in the Bay of Biscay at this time but was unable to claim any enemy ships and returned home - whereupon Kapt. Ernst Gunter Heinicke was relieved of command.
*Note some sources claim 4 sinkings for U-43 and none for U-49.
To support the surface ships four boats were ordered to the Shetlands/Orkney area – U31 (Kapt. Johannes Habekost), U-35 (Kapt. Werner Lott), U-47 (Prien) and U-48 (Schultze). On the 28th Prien fired a torpedo at the heavy cruiser HMS Norfolk. Although convinced that he had damaged the cruiser, the cruiser was in fact unharmed by the torpedo that detonated astern. Prien recorded no sinkings in November. A day later U-35, was sunk by three British destroyers – Icarus, Kashmir and Kingston – after a depth charge attack. All members of the crew were picked up by the destroyers. U-48 sank a 4,800 ton British Merchant, while U-31 claimed two vessels totalling 3,300 tons.
The mines planted by two of the Ducks the previous month were making themselves known; U-21 (Kapt. Fritz Frauenheim) severely damaged the new Town-class cruiser HMS Belfast – damage that would keep her out of the war until 1942. At the beginning of December U-21 sank a Finnish freighter through more conventional means and would add further to her tally later in the month. U-24 (Kapt. Harald Jeppener-Haltenhoff) also recorded a single success with the sinking of a small freighter.
Further mining operations were carried out in November against the East Coast ports in preparation for the planned (but ultimately postponed) invasion of France. U-15’s (Kapt. Heinz Buchholz) minefield would prove disappointing. A mine laid by U-19 (Kapt. Wilhelm Muller Arnecke) sank a Yugolav merchant (note this was in addition to three ships sunk to her mines the previous month, but not reported in the October figures. A mine from U-20 (Kapt. Karl-Heinz Moehle) also sank one ship at the end of the month.
Also operating on the East coast were U-18 (Kapt. Max-Hermann Bauer) that sank a 500 ton merchant ship, U-20 (Kapt. Karl-Heinrich Jenisch) that despatched a 345 ton trawler, and U-57 (Kapt. Claus Korth) that sank two freighters totalling almost 3,000 tons. Further north U-13 (Kapt. Heinz Scheringer) sank a small 800 ton freighter. U-56 (Kapt. Wilhelm Zahn) sank a Swedish freighter for 2,119 tons.
Elsewhere, U-33 (Hans-Wilhelm von Dresky) was patrolling west of the UK and off the coast of Ireland she came across five small trawlers and sunk all of them. On the 23rd she intercepted the Borkum – a German ship that the British had captured and taken as a prize. U-33 sunk her, killing four Germans in the process. U-28 (Kapt. Gunter Kuhnke) was also off the coast of southern Ireland on her way to lay mines when she came upon two ships – one of which was a Dutch tanker – and she claimed them both netting over 10,000 tons.
Note, Clay Blair suggests that the U-26 (Kapt Klaus Ewerth) mission to the Mediterranean was a failure and she never got past Gibraltar. Other sources suggest that she did make it there and in a patrol that lasted a few days she sank the French merchant Loire (4,300 tons). I have included this “kill” in the numbers below.
Once again, Donitz’s boats were plagued with magnetic pistol failures and torpedo malfunctions…
Summary for the period
U-boat, type, ships sunk
U-13 (IIB) - (1) Bowling (19th)
U-18 (IIB) - (1) Parkhill (18th)
U-19 (IIB) - (1) Carica Millica (18th)
U-20 (IIB) - (1) Ionian (29th)
U-21 (IIB) - (1) Mercator (1st Dec)
U-22 (IIB) – (1) Wigmore (18th)
U-24 (IIB) – (1) Carmarthen Coast (9th)
U-26 (I) - (2) Loire (13th) Elena R (22nd)
U-28 (VII) - (2) Sliedrecht (17th) Royston Grange (25th)
U-31 (VII) - (3) Arcturus (1st Dec) Ove Toft (3rd Dec)
U-33 (VII) - (6) Thomas Hankins, Delphine and Sea Sweeper (20th) Sulby and William Humphries (21st) Borkum (23rd)
U-41 (IX) - (4) Creswell and Arne Kjode (12th) Darino (19th) Les Barges II (21st)
U-43 (IX) - (3) Arlington Court (16th) Arijon (22nd) Uskmouth (25th)
U-48 (VIIB) - (1) Gustaf E Reuter (27th)
U-49 (VIIB) - (1) Pensilva (19th)
U-56 (IIC) - (1) Rudolf (3rd Dec)
U-57 (IIC) - (2) Kaunas (17th) Stanbrook (19th)
Total - 31 ships with a tonnage of 84,357
The above came at a cost of just one U-boat – U-35.
Sources:
Hitler’s U-boat War Volume I (Clay Blair)
Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-45 (Jurgen Rohwer)
www.uboat.net
One of the battles that Donitz faced constantly with Hitler, and even the OKM, was that concerning the best employment of U-boats for maximum effect. Donitz was unequivocal in his belief that his U-boats should be in the Atlantic attacking convoys; it was the strangulation of trade that would hurt the British and, hopefully, take them out of the war.
However, on many occasions his U-boat force was tasked with support operations and special missions that took the boats away from the convoys. November 1939 saw this happening on a large scale. There were three reasons for this: 1. a number of boats were engaged in mining operations (more than usual as the OKM wanted ports mined as part of the planned German offensive against France), 2. the return to Germany of the Deutschland (see Post 137) and 3. The OKM were planning a breakout into the Atlantic by the Battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (see later).
In the case of the latter two operations, OKM wanted a U-boat force to assist both the return of the Panzerschiff and the breakout by the capital ships.
This meant that Donitz had just three boats available for duty in the North Atlantic – U-41 (Kapt. Gustav-Adolf Mugler), U-43 (Kapt. Wilhem Ambrosius) and U-49 (Kapt. Curt von Gossler). Note: by this time the restriction on French and British passenger ships had been removed as had a restriction pertaining to neutral tankers (except the US) which were thought to be UK bound.
On the 12th November, U-41 sunk a small British trawler and an 11,000 ton Norwegian tanker before Donitz ordered the boats south to the Bay of Biscay due to the atrocious weather conditions. Whilst there, U-41 accounted for a small British freighter and a French trawler, while U-43* accounted for three ships totalling almost 12,000 tons. Although U-49* only achieved one sinking, and was herself badly damaged and almost sunk, she did provide Donitz with a valuable piece of information. In evading a depth charge attack by HM destroyers Echo and Wanderer she dived to over 550 feet – way more than was believed possible – and importantly, deeper than the 500 feet maximum depth for British depth charges. U-43 was also damaged and forced to abort during this patrol. U-53, which we had last heard about in September (see Post 56), was ordered to the Mediterranean in October but had not been able to negotiate the Straits. She too was in the Bay of Biscay at this time but was unable to claim any enemy ships and returned home - whereupon Kapt. Ernst Gunter Heinicke was relieved of command.
*Note some sources claim 4 sinkings for U-43 and none for U-49.
To support the surface ships four boats were ordered to the Shetlands/Orkney area – U31 (Kapt. Johannes Habekost), U-35 (Kapt. Werner Lott), U-47 (Prien) and U-48 (Schultze). On the 28th Prien fired a torpedo at the heavy cruiser HMS Norfolk. Although convinced that he had damaged the cruiser, the cruiser was in fact unharmed by the torpedo that detonated astern. Prien recorded no sinkings in November. A day later U-35, was sunk by three British destroyers – Icarus, Kashmir and Kingston – after a depth charge attack. All members of the crew were picked up by the destroyers. U-48 sank a 4,800 ton British Merchant, while U-31 claimed two vessels totalling 3,300 tons.
The mines planted by two of the Ducks the previous month were making themselves known; U-21 (Kapt. Fritz Frauenheim) severely damaged the new Town-class cruiser HMS Belfast – damage that would keep her out of the war until 1942. At the beginning of December U-21 sank a Finnish freighter through more conventional means and would add further to her tally later in the month. U-24 (Kapt. Harald Jeppener-Haltenhoff) also recorded a single success with the sinking of a small freighter.
Further mining operations were carried out in November against the East Coast ports in preparation for the planned (but ultimately postponed) invasion of France. U-15’s (Kapt. Heinz Buchholz) minefield would prove disappointing. A mine laid by U-19 (Kapt. Wilhelm Muller Arnecke) sank a Yugolav merchant (note this was in addition to three ships sunk to her mines the previous month, but not reported in the October figures. A mine from U-20 (Kapt. Karl-Heinz Moehle) also sank one ship at the end of the month.
Also operating on the East coast were U-18 (Kapt. Max-Hermann Bauer) that sank a 500 ton merchant ship, U-20 (Kapt. Karl-Heinrich Jenisch) that despatched a 345 ton trawler, and U-57 (Kapt. Claus Korth) that sank two freighters totalling almost 3,000 tons. Further north U-13 (Kapt. Heinz Scheringer) sank a small 800 ton freighter. U-56 (Kapt. Wilhelm Zahn) sank a Swedish freighter for 2,119 tons.
Elsewhere, U-33 (Hans-Wilhelm von Dresky) was patrolling west of the UK and off the coast of Ireland she came across five small trawlers and sunk all of them. On the 23rd she intercepted the Borkum – a German ship that the British had captured and taken as a prize. U-33 sunk her, killing four Germans in the process. U-28 (Kapt. Gunter Kuhnke) was also off the coast of southern Ireland on her way to lay mines when she came upon two ships – one of which was a Dutch tanker – and she claimed them both netting over 10,000 tons.
Note, Clay Blair suggests that the U-26 (Kapt Klaus Ewerth) mission to the Mediterranean was a failure and she never got past Gibraltar. Other sources suggest that she did make it there and in a patrol that lasted a few days she sank the French merchant Loire (4,300 tons). I have included this “kill” in the numbers below.
Once again, Donitz’s boats were plagued with magnetic pistol failures and torpedo malfunctions…
Summary for the period
U-boat, type, ships sunk
U-13 (IIB) - (1) Bowling (19th)
U-18 (IIB) - (1) Parkhill (18th)
U-19 (IIB) - (1) Carica Millica (18th)
U-20 (IIB) - (1) Ionian (29th)
U-21 (IIB) - (1) Mercator (1st Dec)
U-22 (IIB) – (1) Wigmore (18th)
U-24 (IIB) – (1) Carmarthen Coast (9th)
U-26 (I) - (2) Loire (13th) Elena R (22nd)
U-28 (VII) - (2) Sliedrecht (17th) Royston Grange (25th)
U-31 (VII) - (3) Arcturus (1st Dec) Ove Toft (3rd Dec)
U-33 (VII) - (6) Thomas Hankins, Delphine and Sea Sweeper (20th) Sulby and William Humphries (21st) Borkum (23rd)
U-41 (IX) - (4) Creswell and Arne Kjode (12th) Darino (19th) Les Barges II (21st)
U-43 (IX) - (3) Arlington Court (16th) Arijon (22nd) Uskmouth (25th)
U-48 (VIIB) - (1) Gustaf E Reuter (27th)
U-49 (VIIB) - (1) Pensilva (19th)
U-56 (IIC) - (1) Rudolf (3rd Dec)
U-57 (IIC) - (2) Kaunas (17th) Stanbrook (19th)
Total - 31 ships with a tonnage of 84,357
The above came at a cost of just one U-boat – U-35.
Sources:
Hitler’s U-boat War Volume I (Clay Blair)
Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-45 (Jurgen Rohwer)
www.uboat.net
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:37 am
8th and 12th – 13th November 1939 (North Sea Minelaying Operations)
Following on from the first minelaying operation the previous month (see Post 119) the German destroyer forces, now under the command of FdZ Kapitan Friedrich Bonte, prepared to carry out another such operation on the 8th November. This operation was aborted however due to problems en route with one of the destroyers.
Five nights later a further attempt was made, and although three of the destroyers had to return prematurely to port, Bonte ordered the four remaining destroyers – Wilhelm Heidkamp, Hans Ludemann, Hermann Kunne and Karl Galster - to continue on to their target – the Thames Estuary. In thick Fog, almost 300 mines (including some magnetic) were laid. The destroyers made a swift exit and were met by the light cruisers and torpedo boats of Vice-Admiral Gunther Lutjens Reconnaissance force.
In the early hours of the 13th, two Royal Navy destroyers – HMS Basilisk and HMS Blanche were escorting the minelaying cruiser Adventure to Portsmouth when the cruiser struck one of Bonte’s mines. Correctly surmising that Adventure had struck a mine (rather than a torpedo hit) Basilisk was ordered alongside to remove the wounded while damage control teams set to work to keep the cruiser afloat. Meanwhile HMS Blanche undertook an ASW sweep just in case.
Adventure was able to make the port of Sheerness under her own steam but she would be out of the war for almost a year. HMS Blanche was not so lucky. She had returned to assist the painfully slow progress of the cruiser when she too struck a mine. Like Adventure, the destroyer was able to make good the worst of the damage (although she was without power) and, with the assistance of a tug, she began a race against time to get to the safety of harbour. It was to prove a battle she would ultimately lose and the little destroyer eventually rolled over and sank. By this time there were a number of support vessels to hand thus ensuring that loss of life was minimal.
HMS Basilisk sailed for Chatham to unload Adventure’s wounded. Numbers vary according to different sources, but the number killed was 23 or 24 on Adventure and 1 or 2 on Blanche.
In the coming days, thirteen more ships were sunk as a result of the mines laid on the night of the 12th November.
HMS Blanche. One of the B-class destroyers built between 1929 and 1931. As was standard at that time the class consisted of eight ships plus a slightly larger flotilla leader. Main armament was provided by four single 4.7-inch quick firing guns. Anti-aircraft defence consisted of two 2-pdr pompoms. Two quadruple 21-inch torpedo tubes were also fitted. Top speed was 35 knots.
Wilhelm Heidkamp or Z.21.This ship was one of a class of six from the 1936 type. German pre-war destroyer design all stemmed from the 1934-type - which proved poor seaboats. The problems with the initial two classes - 1934 and 1934A – had not been noticed when the plans for the 1936 type were drawn up - but, luckily for the Kriegsmarine, the changes made to the newer ships, improved handling and structural integrity. Engine problems encountered with the earlier ships were also largely overcome. The 1936 type featured no less than five 5-inch guns, four 37mm and seven 20mm guns. They were also fitted with two quadruple torpedo tubes They were capable of 40 knots.
Sources:
Naval Warfare in the English Channel 1939-45 (Peter C Smith)
Conways All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946
Following on from the first minelaying operation the previous month (see Post 119) the German destroyer forces, now under the command of FdZ Kapitan Friedrich Bonte, prepared to carry out another such operation on the 8th November. This operation was aborted however due to problems en route with one of the destroyers.
Five nights later a further attempt was made, and although three of the destroyers had to return prematurely to port, Bonte ordered the four remaining destroyers – Wilhelm Heidkamp, Hans Ludemann, Hermann Kunne and Karl Galster - to continue on to their target – the Thames Estuary. In thick Fog, almost 300 mines (including some magnetic) were laid. The destroyers made a swift exit and were met by the light cruisers and torpedo boats of Vice-Admiral Gunther Lutjens Reconnaissance force.
In the early hours of the 13th, two Royal Navy destroyers – HMS Basilisk and HMS Blanche were escorting the minelaying cruiser Adventure to Portsmouth when the cruiser struck one of Bonte’s mines. Correctly surmising that Adventure had struck a mine (rather than a torpedo hit) Basilisk was ordered alongside to remove the wounded while damage control teams set to work to keep the cruiser afloat. Meanwhile HMS Blanche undertook an ASW sweep just in case.
Adventure was able to make the port of Sheerness under her own steam but she would be out of the war for almost a year. HMS Blanche was not so lucky. She had returned to assist the painfully slow progress of the cruiser when she too struck a mine. Like Adventure, the destroyer was able to make good the worst of the damage (although she was without power) and, with the assistance of a tug, she began a race against time to get to the safety of harbour. It was to prove a battle she would ultimately lose and the little destroyer eventually rolled over and sank. By this time there were a number of support vessels to hand thus ensuring that loss of life was minimal.
HMS Basilisk sailed for Chatham to unload Adventure’s wounded. Numbers vary according to different sources, but the number killed was 23 or 24 on Adventure and 1 or 2 on Blanche.
In the coming days, thirteen more ships were sunk as a result of the mines laid on the night of the 12th November.
HMS Blanche. One of the B-class destroyers built between 1929 and 1931. As was standard at that time the class consisted of eight ships plus a slightly larger flotilla leader. Main armament was provided by four single 4.7-inch quick firing guns. Anti-aircraft defence consisted of two 2-pdr pompoms. Two quadruple 21-inch torpedo tubes were also fitted. Top speed was 35 knots.
Wilhelm Heidkamp or Z.21.This ship was one of a class of six from the 1936 type. German pre-war destroyer design all stemmed from the 1934-type - which proved poor seaboats. The problems with the initial two classes - 1934 and 1934A – had not been noticed when the plans for the 1936 type were drawn up - but, luckily for the Kriegsmarine, the changes made to the newer ships, improved handling and structural integrity. Engine problems encountered with the earlier ships were also largely overcome. The 1936 type featured no less than five 5-inch guns, four 37mm and seven 20mm guns. They were also fitted with two quadruple torpedo tubes They were capable of 40 knots.
Sources:
Naval Warfare in the English Channel 1939-45 (Peter C Smith)
Conways All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:37 pm
Enjoyed reading your post about the town-class cruisers. [8D]
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:52 am
warspite1ORIGINAL: th1207
Enjoyed reading your post about the town-class cruisers. [8D]
Thank-you. Anything about that post in particular or was it the subject matter?
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:35 am
What were the British defence against this? Did they have radar coverage over the estuary? Did they have ships patrolling and if they did were they patrolling during the fog when the Germans lay their mines?The first operation took place on the 12th. Four destroyers – Karl Galster, Wilhelm Heidkamp, Hermann Kunne and Hans Ludemann – commanded by the Officer Commanding Destroyers Kapt. Friedrich Bonte - made good use of thick fog to lay a minefield of almost 300 magnetic mines in the Thames Estuary. The ships were undetected and returned to Germany under the protection of Vice-Admiral’s Densch’s force of light cruisers and torpedo boats.
Did the British make any changes in order to prevent this from happening again? Any investigation why this had not been stopped or even detected?
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:33 am
Good questions.
I do not believe that there was any radar defence. Radar was early in its infancy and not available for this purpose.
Yes the RN had patrols out but - amazingly - they were unaware that German destroyers had laid these minefields. It was assumed it was the work of subs/aircraft etc. Credit has to be given to the Germans for such bold operations and making use of moonless nights and poor weather conditions.
The operations stopped in February 1940 but I am not sure why at this stage.
Further details of subsequent operations will follow in due course - but they would prove painful for the British as we shall see.
I do not believe that there was any radar defence. Radar was early in its infancy and not available for this purpose.
Yes the RN had patrols out but - amazingly - they were unaware that German destroyers had laid these minefields. It was assumed it was the work of subs/aircraft etc. Credit has to be given to the Germans for such bold operations and making use of moonless nights and poor weather conditions.
The operations stopped in February 1940 but I am not sure why at this stage.
Further details of subsequent operations will follow in due course - but they would prove painful for the British as we shall see.
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:47 am
Royal Navy. Armed Merchant Cruisers (AMC’s).
Before the outbreak of World War II the Admiralty thought the biggest threat to the sea lanes, that brought food and other vital supplies to the United Kingdom, would come from surface raiders – rather than submarines.
It was decided that in the event of war the Royal Navy’s cruiser fleet would be augmented by a fleet of merchant ships converted for the purposes of escort and patrol work. As usual, sources vary, but I think the most reliable figure for the number of AMC’s employed was 56 (including 3 for the Royal Canadian Navy, 2 for the Royal Australian Navy and 1 for what became the Royal New Zealand Navy). The ships were crewed by a mixture of Royal Navy and their peacetime Merchant Navy crew.
Given the heritage of these ships, they proved to be generally excellent sea boats, and much better suited to the worst that the North Atlantic could offer, than the small, elderly light cruisers of the Northern Patrol for example. Note: around half of the AMC’s were earmarked for Northern Patrol work.
The ships were mostly of between 10-20,000 tons (although there were a few smaller) and could do at least 15 knots. Typically the ships were fitted with up to eight 6-inch guns and two 3-inch guns, however these were not new weapons, and as a result they typically did not have sufficient elevation to allow a range of more than 15,000 yards. Overtime some newer weapons were fitted and anti-aircraft defence was improved, but this was the exception rather than the rule.
The ships suffered from a number of drawbacks and these would contribute to the loss of 15 ships before they finally began being withdrawn in late 1941. As ocean liners, the profile of the ships were not conducive to fighting gun battles – large, slab sided superstructures invited being struck by enemy naval shells. Their lack of armour and antiquated weaponry meant that they were vulnerable even in fights with naval vessels armed with similar weapons. They were particularly vulnerable to U-boat attack as they had no better protection from torpedoes than the ships they were escorting.
As more escort vessels were completed, combined with the volume of enemy ships trying to reach Germany naturally lessening, the ships started to be withdrawn. The majority of the surviving vessels were employed as troopships after 1941, although other specialist roles awaited a small number of vessels e.g. landing ships and repair ships.
Fate of the AMC’s
Lost to U-boat – 10: Andania, Carinthia, Dunvegan Castle, Forfar, Laurentic, Patrolcus, Rajputana, Salopian, Scotstoun and Transylvania.
Lost to Auxiliary Raiders – 1: Voltaire
Air Attack – 1: Hector
Fire – 1: Comorin
Kriegsmarine surface ships – 2: Jervis Bay and Rawalpindi
The ships may have been limited in their usefulness – but they did provide a much needed boost to the Northern Patrol and were responsible for a number of successful intercepts of enemy vessels. The shortcomings of the ships themselves was no reflection on the bravery of the officers and men who put to sea in them. Indeed the loss of two of the ships – at the hands of units of the Kriegsmarine, would go down in the annals of Royal Naval history. We shall come across the first of these later this month.
HMS Laconia (19,695 tons). A typical AMC – although it is her life after conversion to a troopship that proved far more interesting as we shall see in due course…… She was originally built as an ocean liner for the renowned Cunard Line in 1921, and operated between the UK and America. She was requisitioned by the Admiralty almost as soon as war broke out. She was fitted with eight, ageing 6-inch guns and two 3-inch AA weapons.
Before the outbreak of World War II the Admiralty thought the biggest threat to the sea lanes, that brought food and other vital supplies to the United Kingdom, would come from surface raiders – rather than submarines.
It was decided that in the event of war the Royal Navy’s cruiser fleet would be augmented by a fleet of merchant ships converted for the purposes of escort and patrol work. As usual, sources vary, but I think the most reliable figure for the number of AMC’s employed was 56 (including 3 for the Royal Canadian Navy, 2 for the Royal Australian Navy and 1 for what became the Royal New Zealand Navy). The ships were crewed by a mixture of Royal Navy and their peacetime Merchant Navy crew.
Given the heritage of these ships, they proved to be generally excellent sea boats, and much better suited to the worst that the North Atlantic could offer, than the small, elderly light cruisers of the Northern Patrol for example. Note: around half of the AMC’s were earmarked for Northern Patrol work.
The ships were mostly of between 10-20,000 tons (although there were a few smaller) and could do at least 15 knots. Typically the ships were fitted with up to eight 6-inch guns and two 3-inch guns, however these were not new weapons, and as a result they typically did not have sufficient elevation to allow a range of more than 15,000 yards. Overtime some newer weapons were fitted and anti-aircraft defence was improved, but this was the exception rather than the rule.
The ships suffered from a number of drawbacks and these would contribute to the loss of 15 ships before they finally began being withdrawn in late 1941. As ocean liners, the profile of the ships were not conducive to fighting gun battles – large, slab sided superstructures invited being struck by enemy naval shells. Their lack of armour and antiquated weaponry meant that they were vulnerable even in fights with naval vessels armed with similar weapons. They were particularly vulnerable to U-boat attack as they had no better protection from torpedoes than the ships they were escorting.
As more escort vessels were completed, combined with the volume of enemy ships trying to reach Germany naturally lessening, the ships started to be withdrawn. The majority of the surviving vessels were employed as troopships after 1941, although other specialist roles awaited a small number of vessels e.g. landing ships and repair ships.
Fate of the AMC’s
Lost to U-boat – 10: Andania, Carinthia, Dunvegan Castle, Forfar, Laurentic, Patrolcus, Rajputana, Salopian, Scotstoun and Transylvania.
Lost to Auxiliary Raiders – 1: Voltaire
Air Attack – 1: Hector
Fire – 1: Comorin
Kriegsmarine surface ships – 2: Jervis Bay and Rawalpindi
The ships may have been limited in their usefulness – but they did provide a much needed boost to the Northern Patrol and were responsible for a number of successful intercepts of enemy vessels. The shortcomings of the ships themselves was no reflection on the bravery of the officers and men who put to sea in them. Indeed the loss of two of the ships – at the hands of units of the Kriegsmarine, would go down in the annals of Royal Naval history. We shall come across the first of these later this month.
HMS Laconia (19,695 tons). A typical AMC – although it is her life after conversion to a troopship that proved far more interesting as we shall see in due course…… She was originally built as an ocean liner for the renowned Cunard Line in 1921, and operated between the UK and America. She was requisitioned by the Admiralty almost as soon as war broke out. She was fitted with eight, ageing 6-inch guns and two 3-inch AA weapons.
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:46 pm
This is Great! Thank you W1! I think after this you should do a WW1 day by day.
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:53 am
warspite1ORIGINAL: rogo727
This is Great! Thank you W1! I think after this you should do a WW1 day by day.
I'll pass the mantle on to someone else if that's okay [;)]
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:52 am
Kriegsmarine. Scharnhorst-class battlecruisers*
Scharnhorst – Completed January 1939
Gneisenau – Completed May 1938
*The two ships of this class are invariably described as either battleships or battlecruisers. They were essentially the very opposite of what a battlecruiser was supposed to be; they were weakly armed but heavily armoured. However, for the purposes of this thread I am going to continue to call them battlecruisers for the simple reason that this is what I “knew” them to be as a kid growing up!
Equally this class is known by the name of each ship depending on the source. I will stick with Scharnhorst-class.
As detailed in the section on the panzerschiffe (see post 88) under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles the German Navy was allowed to replace each of the eight “battleships” it was allowed to retain after WWI once they had reached 20-years old. The replacement ships could not exceed 10,000 tons. The first three replacement ships were the Deutschland-class panzerschiffe.
When the French announced the Dunkerque-class fast battleships, the panzerschiffe program was stopped as the French would now have a faster AND better armed ship. The Germans needed to re-think the design for the next two replacements vessels – Ersatz Elsass (Scharnhorst) and Ersatz Hessen (Gneisenau). So began a long process of design and re-design (outside the scope of this post), during which, two major events took place; one was Hitler’s repudiation of Versailles and the other was the signing of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.
Germany was now able to build a navy that was limited to 35% of the Royal Navy. The 10,000 ton restriction on individual ships was removed and the Washington limitations on individual ship types came into being. The two ships ultimately came in at just under 35,000 tons standard displacement.
The original design for the Scharnhorsts essentially allowed for a better armoured, faster version of the panzerschiffe. This would result in a hopelessly weak main armament given the size of the ship and, upon the insistence of Admiral Raeder, a third turret was added.
The next problem was the calibre of gun to be used. It was ultimately decided to stick with the 11-inch gun as a move to a 12 or 15-inch weapon would mean unacceptable delays while the new guns were designed, tested and built. The Scharnhorsts were thus equipped with three triple 11-inch turrets. The plan was for these to be replaced with 15-inch guns in due course - but this never happened.
Secondary armament was also beefed up during the design phase. The secondary armament consisted of twelve 5.9-inch guns in four twin and four single mounts. Anti-aircraft defence was provided by seven twin 4.1-inch guns. Light AA consisted of sixteen 37mm and eight 20mm guns. Two triple torpedo tubes were mounted. Up to three aircraft could be carried for which one catapult was fitted.
Defensive armour was provided by a main belt with a maximum of 13.75-inches and the main turrets and conning tower were 14-inches maximum. Upper deck armour was 2-inches thick and further protection was provided by the main armoured deck with a maximum of 2/4-inches above the vital ammunition and machinery spaces (note: sources vary on the maximum thickness of this deck).
After much debate, the powerplant was agreed. Diesels (the original choice) were discarded due to the need to reduce weight and in order to achieve the required level of top speed. The three-shaft geared steam turbines produced 165,000 shp giving a top speed of 32 knots. Range was 8,400 miles at 15 knots.
These were fine looking ships – particularly so once the “Atlantic” bow and funnel caps were fitted just prior to the war starting. They had a successful start to the war, usually operating together, but this ended in 1942 following Operation Cerberus (The Channel Dash). Gneisenau was badly damaged shortly after in an air raid and was never again operational. Without her sister, Scharnhorst ploughed a lonely furrow in the waters in and around Norway. It was there in the icy, unforgiving waters of the Barents Sea that she was to meet her doom on Boxing Day in 1943.
Operating together the "Ugly Sisters" had a successful wartime career up to 1941, playing a key role in the conquest of Norway (Weserubung), the destruction of the aircraft carrier Glorious (Operation Juno) and also a sortie into the Atlantic (Operation Berlin). Thereafter things turned sour. Holed up in France and subject to air attack, the ships were ordered back to Germany, following which their war's were to take very different turns.
The dramatic difference made by the adoption of the "Atlantic" bow and the funnel cap can be clearly seen by the before and after shots below.
Before:
After:
Sources:
Conways All The Worlds Fighting Ships 1922-1946
German Capital Ships of the Second World War (Breyer and Skwiot)
German Battleships 1939-45 (Osprey Publishing)
Scharnhorst – Completed January 1939
Gneisenau – Completed May 1938
*The two ships of this class are invariably described as either battleships or battlecruisers. They were essentially the very opposite of what a battlecruiser was supposed to be; they were weakly armed but heavily armoured. However, for the purposes of this thread I am going to continue to call them battlecruisers for the simple reason that this is what I “knew” them to be as a kid growing up!
Equally this class is known by the name of each ship depending on the source. I will stick with Scharnhorst-class.
As detailed in the section on the panzerschiffe (see post 88) under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles the German Navy was allowed to replace each of the eight “battleships” it was allowed to retain after WWI once they had reached 20-years old. The replacement ships could not exceed 10,000 tons. The first three replacement ships were the Deutschland-class panzerschiffe.
When the French announced the Dunkerque-class fast battleships, the panzerschiffe program was stopped as the French would now have a faster AND better armed ship. The Germans needed to re-think the design for the next two replacements vessels – Ersatz Elsass (Scharnhorst) and Ersatz Hessen (Gneisenau). So began a long process of design and re-design (outside the scope of this post), during which, two major events took place; one was Hitler’s repudiation of Versailles and the other was the signing of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.
Germany was now able to build a navy that was limited to 35% of the Royal Navy. The 10,000 ton restriction on individual ships was removed and the Washington limitations on individual ship types came into being. The two ships ultimately came in at just under 35,000 tons standard displacement.
The original design for the Scharnhorsts essentially allowed for a better armoured, faster version of the panzerschiffe. This would result in a hopelessly weak main armament given the size of the ship and, upon the insistence of Admiral Raeder, a third turret was added.
The next problem was the calibre of gun to be used. It was ultimately decided to stick with the 11-inch gun as a move to a 12 or 15-inch weapon would mean unacceptable delays while the new guns were designed, tested and built. The Scharnhorsts were thus equipped with three triple 11-inch turrets. The plan was for these to be replaced with 15-inch guns in due course - but this never happened.
Secondary armament was also beefed up during the design phase. The secondary armament consisted of twelve 5.9-inch guns in four twin and four single mounts. Anti-aircraft defence was provided by seven twin 4.1-inch guns. Light AA consisted of sixteen 37mm and eight 20mm guns. Two triple torpedo tubes were mounted. Up to three aircraft could be carried for which one catapult was fitted.
Defensive armour was provided by a main belt with a maximum of 13.75-inches and the main turrets and conning tower were 14-inches maximum. Upper deck armour was 2-inches thick and further protection was provided by the main armoured deck with a maximum of 2/4-inches above the vital ammunition and machinery spaces (note: sources vary on the maximum thickness of this deck).
After much debate, the powerplant was agreed. Diesels (the original choice) were discarded due to the need to reduce weight and in order to achieve the required level of top speed. The three-shaft geared steam turbines produced 165,000 shp giving a top speed of 32 knots. Range was 8,400 miles at 15 knots.
These were fine looking ships – particularly so once the “Atlantic” bow and funnel caps were fitted just prior to the war starting. They had a successful start to the war, usually operating together, but this ended in 1942 following Operation Cerberus (The Channel Dash). Gneisenau was badly damaged shortly after in an air raid and was never again operational. Without her sister, Scharnhorst ploughed a lonely furrow in the waters in and around Norway. It was there in the icy, unforgiving waters of the Barents Sea that she was to meet her doom on Boxing Day in 1943.
Operating together the "Ugly Sisters" had a successful wartime career up to 1941, playing a key role in the conquest of Norway (Weserubung), the destruction of the aircraft carrier Glorious (Operation Juno) and also a sortie into the Atlantic (Operation Berlin). Thereafter things turned sour. Holed up in France and subject to air attack, the ships were ordered back to Germany, following which their war's were to take very different turns.
The dramatic difference made by the adoption of the "Atlantic" bow and the funnel cap can be clearly seen by the before and after shots below.
Before:
After:
Sources:
Conways All The Worlds Fighting Ships 1922-1946
German Capital Ships of the Second World War (Breyer and Skwiot)
German Battleships 1939-45 (Osprey Publishing)
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:53 am
They would have been a real force to be reckoned with had they been up-gunned to 15" as planned. As long as they didnt lose too much speed from extra weight.
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:29 am
warspite1ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt
They would have been a real force to be reckoned with had they been up-gunned to 15" as planned. As long as they didnt lose too much speed from extra weight.
They would have been similarly armed, slightly faster, but less well armoured ship in comparison to the Bismarcks.
Having four 15-inch capital ships opposing them would have been a worry for the British - but as was proved during the war - their real threat came as a fleet in being (tieing down more ships to the Home Fleet than could ideally be spared) rather than as surface raiders themselves.
Surface raiding returns from the Kriegsmarine units were woeful.
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:25 pm
They may of been a worry, but they could not go toe to toe with the RN and expect to be on top.ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt
They would have been a real force to be reckoned with had they been up-gunned to 15" as planned. As long as they didnt lose too much speed from extra weight.
They would have been similarly armed, slightly faster, but less well armoured ship in comparison to the Bismarcks.
Having four 15-inch capital ships opposing them would have been a worry for the British - but as was proved during the war - their real threat came as a fleet in being (tieing down more ships to the Home Fleet than could ideally be spared) rather than as surface raiders themselves.
Surface raiding returns from the Kriegsmarine units were woeful.
Love this thread!!
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:41 pm
warspite1ORIGINAL: Aurelian
They may of been a worry, but they could not go toe to toe with the RN and expect to be on top.ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt
They would have been a real force to be reckoned with had they been up-gunned to 15" as planned. As long as they didnt lose too much speed from extra weight.
They would have been similarly armed, slightly faster, but less well armoured ship in comparison to the Bismarcks.
Having four 15-inch capital ships opposing them would have been a worry for the British - but as was proved during the war - their real threat came as a fleet in being (tieing down more ships to the Home Fleet than could ideally be spared) rather than as surface raiders themselves.
Surface raiding returns from the Kriegsmarine units were woeful.
Love this thread!!
Thank-you sir! [:)]
Only problem is I have made a bit of a faux pas on one of the posts - and will have to go back and amend before continuing [:@]
Oh well - my fault for rushing. I will try and sort tomorrow.
RE: Naval War Day-by-Day
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:49 pm
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Pvt_Grunt
They would have been a real force to be reckoned with had they been up-gunned to 15" as planned. As long as they didnt lose too much speed from extra weight.
They would have been similarly armed, slightly faster, but less well armoured ship in comparison to the Bismarcks.
Having four 15-inch capital ships opposing them would have been a worry for the British - but as was proved during the war - their real threat came as a fleet in being (tieing down more ships to the Home Fleet than could ideally be spared) rather than as surface raiders themselves.
For whatever my opinion is worth, up-gunning the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau would have accomplished very little. Their guns had more than adequate range, scoring one of the two longest-distance naval gunnery hits on record. And I'm not aware that they ever hit anything that 15" guns could have penetrated while 11" guns could not.