Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack

My faith was so much stronger then
I believed in fellow man
And I was so much older then
When I was young

Great song!! And your Avatar is really striking.

[Deleted by Admins]

ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC

You know, I recognized the lyrics almost, was gonna ask the song title, must be something I've heard a bit, almost think it's Pink Floyd but not quite sure.

When I was Young, the original by The Animals, I first heard it from the Ramones cover version.

Cheers

[Deleted by Admins]

Forget turn sequences - what about using a logarithmic distance scale.

https://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/2 ... f.html?m=0


Thanks Grandad.

Oh, and another thing.. this is what AARs and stuff looked like.

https://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/s ... waszko?m=0


And we had to make our 20 sided dice by hand.

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Forget turn sequences - what about using a logarithmic distance scale.

https://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/2 ... f.html?m=0


Thanks Grandad.

Oh, and another thing.. this is what AARs and stuff looked like.

https://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/s ... waszko?m=0


And we had to make our 20 sided dice by hand.

Not to mention the ever present threat of a giant cat attack......and walking 4 miles through the snow to buy your games and gaming supplies........[;)]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



I didn't cherry pick anything. Those are the only playtests that I made. Of course different results could probably be obtained if players make vastly different choices than historical or one player is much better than the other. But neither was the case in those playtests. And the results all clearly had excellent historocity.

Amazing. He nailed the confutation to his own theory without even realising it [&:]

aye which is part of the problem. I believe he is too intelligent to make some of his posts in good faith, therefore its all just playing silly games and trolling the forums

One Ad hominem post after another.

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I didn't cherry pick anything. Those are the only playtests that I made. Of course different results could probably be obtained if players make vastly different choices than historical or one player is much better than the other. But neither was the case in those playtests. And the results all clearly had excellent historocity.

Amazing. He nailed the confutation to his own theory without even realising it [&:]

?? How does that refute my claim? That a game can be played deliberately or incompetently to produce an ahistorical result some how refutes that it can be, and has been, played correctly to a historical result when played historically and competently? That's nonsense!

And I want to point out that the results I've listed are only a sample of historical results I've obtained with IGOUGO. I just haven't made movies, or, in some cases, even AARs, with them.

I also have very historical results with these:

Cambrai 1917
Kaiserschlacht 1918 (full size and the mini version)
Denmark Strait 1940
Pearl Harbor 1941
Midway 1942
Savo Island 1942
Cape Esperance 1942
Okinawa 1945

That's nine (or ten) samples in favor of IGOUGO.

For the nth time: Where is the evidence for WEGO!!!!

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I didn't cherry pick anything. Those are the only playtests that I made. Of course different results could probably be obtained if players make vastly different choices than historical or one player is much better than the other. But neither was the case in those playtests. And the results all clearly had excellent historocity.

Amazing. He nailed the confutation to his own theory without even realising it [&:]

?? How does that refute my claim? That a game can be played deliberately or incompetently to produce an ahistorical result some how refutes that it can be, and has been, played correctly to a historical result when played historically and competently? That's nonsense!

And I want to point out that the results I've listed are only a sample of historical results I've obtained with IGOUGO. I just haven't made movies, or, in some cases, even AARs, with them.

I also have very historical results with these:

Cambrai 1917
Kaiserschlacht 1918 (full size and the mini version)
Denmark Strait 1940
Pearl Harbor 1941
Midway 1942
Savo Island 1942
Cape Esperance 1942
Okinawa 1945

That's nine (or ten) samples in favor of IGOUGO.

For the nth time: Where is the evidence for WEGO!!!!

Real life . . . [8|]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I didn't cherry pick anything. Those are the only playtests that I made. Of course different results could probably be obtained if players make vastly different choices than historical or one player is much better than the other. But neither was the case in those playtests. And the results all clearly had excellent historocity.

Amazing. He nailed the confutation to his own theory without even realising it [&:]

?? How does that refute my claim? That a game can be played deliberately or incompetently to produce an ahistorical result some how refutes that it can be, and has been, played correctly to a historical result when played historically and competently? That's nonsense!

You didn't even read my examples about "where 'historicity' falls?" and "single events more crucial than thousands others", did you? [:-]

And I want to point out that the results I've listed are only a sample of historical results I've obtained with IGOUGO. I just haven't made movies, or, in some cases, even AARs, with them.

I also have very historical results with these:

Cambrai 1917
Kaiserschlacht 1918 (full size and the mini version)
Denmark Strait 1940
Pearl Harbor 1941
Midway 1942
Savo Island 1942
Cape Esperance 1942
Okinawa 1945

That's nine (or ten) samples in favor of IGOUGO.

For the nth time: Where is the evidence for WEGO!!!!

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Real life . . . [8|]

LOL!

Or France 1940. On May, 10th the Allied enacted the Dyle plan. MEANWHILE Guderian panzers were squirreling in through the Ardennes...

Trying to simulate that with a IGOUGO would simply give the game away. Either the Allies show if they are falling or not in the German trap, or the Germans show if they are attempting the historical plan or going for a variant of Schlieffen's. This is why a good "alternate activation" game like "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend" to simulate the historical scenario starts with the forces already deployed on turn two.

Santa Cruz was as WEGO as it gets: the two air attacks literally crossed each other's path while enroute to the enemy.

Tactical naval games in general use a WEGO system. Wooden ships and Iron Men used it. Seekrieg V uses it. The operational part of Great War at Sea uses it. Action Stations uses it. Harpoon 1/2/3, Command and HPS Midway 42 use continuous time...

Absolute classics based on complex mathematical models of real-life weapons' interactions like Panthers in the Shadows and Tigers on the Prowl II used WEGO already back in 1995 to simulate WWII tactical actions.

You mentioned some tabletop PTO classics. Good games for their time, with campaigns seldom finished and now collecting dust on some shelves. Then Gary Grigsby published Pacific War (WEGO, thanks to the new possibilities offered by computers), Uncommon Valor (WEGO), War in the Pacific ("Uncommon Valor but with the whole PTO?! Where I do sign?" - WEGO); then some fans with a good idea of what they were doing produced War in the Pacific: AE - i.e. the current gold standard for anything PTO (WEGO).

Should I really go on? Because I can.

Round and round we go.

ORIGINAL: wodin

Round and round we go.

And suddenly back to the start without any solution. It's like the TOAW4 development thread.

So now we know why the Axis lost. They were playing IGOUGO, but the Allies were playing WEGO. They kept waiting for their turn, but they never got it.

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

You didn't even read my examples about "where 'historicity' falls?" and "single events more crucial than thousands others", did you? [:-]

I read it, but it was a repeat of the same nonsense you'd already posted: "If a simulator gets different results than history, we should believe the simulator and ignore the history!" Right?

Again: Just because a drunk can drive a car into a ditch is no evidence that the car is defective.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Real life . . . [8|]

I actually find it believable that you go through life as a mindless automaton.

Or France 1940. On May, 10th the Allied enacted the Dyle plan. MEANWHILE Guderian panzers were squirreling in through the Ardennes...

Trying to simulate that with a IGOUGO would simply give the game away. Either the Allies show if they are falling or not in the German trap, or the Germans show if they are attempting the historical plan or going for a variant of Schlieffen's. This is why a good "alternate activation" game like "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend" to simulate the historical scenario starts with the forces already deployed on turn two.

Or have a house rule that the northern Allied forces must advance due east into Belgium. That's how SPI's War in Europe did it. Clearly, there's no way to erase players 20:20 hindsight about that particular subject. So some sort of special rules are necessary regardless of system used.

And France 1944 was a very different subject than France 1940. My example was for the former.

Santa Cruz was as WEGO as it gets: the two air attacks literally crossed each other's path while enroute to the enemy.

Tactical naval games in general use a WEGO system. Wooden ships and Iron Men used it. Seekrieg V uses it. The operational part of Great War at Sea uses it. Action Stations uses it. Harpoon 1/2/3, Command and HPS Midway 42 use continuous time...

Absolute classics based on complex mathematical models of real-life weapons' interactions like Panthers in the Shadows and Tigers on the Prowl II used WEGO already back in 1995 to simulate WWII tactical actions.

The only tactical naval games I've ever played used real-time. I still don't see how WEGO is beneficial to tactical actions - unless you shorten the game interval so much that it practically replicates real-time. Under those conditions even IGOUGO would work.

You mentioned some tabletop PTO classics. Good games for their time, with campaigns seldom finished and now collecting dust on some shelves. Then Gary Grigsby published Pacific War (WEGO, thanks to the new possibilities offered by computers), Uncommon Valor (WEGO), War in the Pacific ("Uncommon Valor but with the whole PTO?! Where I do sign?" - WEGO); then some fans with a good idea of what they were doing produced War in the Pacific: AE - i.e. the current gold standard for anything PTO (WEGO).

I'd like to see WitP:AE match my Pearl Harbor 1941 scenario. Or my Savo Island 1942 scenario. Or my Okinawa 1945 scenario.

I've got deja vu; again.

ORIGINAL: altipueri

I've got deja vu; again.

warspite1

Didn't you just say that?

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

You didn't even read my examples about "where 'historicity' falls?" and "single events more crucial than thousands others", did you? [:-]

I read it, but it was a repeat of the same nonsense you'd already posted: "If a simulator gets different results than history, we should believe the simulator and ignore the history!" Right?

No. That's not what I wrote at all.

Again: Just because a drunk can drive a car into a ditch is no evidence that the car is defective.

Neither a pilot driving a car once around a circuit proves that the car is safe. Your point?

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Real life . . . [8|]

I actually find it believable that you go through life as a mindless automaton.

Hmmm... [:-]

(WEGO isn't "mindless automation" anyway...)

Or France 1940. On May, 10th the Allied enacted the Dyle plan. MEANWHILE Guderian panzers were squirreling in through the Ardennes...

Trying to simulate that with a IGOUGO would simply give the game away. Either the Allies show if they are falling or not in the German trap, or the Germans show if they are attempting the historical plan or going for a variant of Schlieffen's. This is why a good "alternate activation" game like "OCS: The Blitzkrieg Legend" to simulate the historical scenario starts with the forces already deployed on turn two.

Or have a house rule that the northern Allied forces must advance due east into Belgium. That's how SPI's War in Europe did it. Clearly, there's no way to erase players 20:20 hindsight about that particular subject. So some sort of special rules are necessary regardless of system used.

Amazing. He managed to disprove his own ideas without realising it again. [X(]

And France 1944 was a very different subject than France 1940. My example was for the former.

We already knew that IGOUGO wasn't the end answer to everything, thank you.

Santa Cruz was as WEGO as it gets: the two air attacks literally crossed each other's path while enroute to the enemy.

Tactical naval games in general use a WEGO system. Wooden ships and Iron Men used it. Seekrieg V uses it. The operational part of Great War at Sea uses it. Action Stations uses it. Harpoon 1/2/3, Command and HPS Midway 42 use continuous time...

Absolute classics based on complex mathematical models of real-life weapons' interactions like Panthers in the Shadows and Tigers on the Prowl II used WEGO already back in 1995 to simulate WWII tactical actions.

The only tactical naval games I've ever played used real-time. I still don't see how WEGO is beneficial to tactical actions - unless you shorten the game interval so much that it practically replicates real-time. Under those conditions even IGOUGO would work.

You are offering us your enlightened wisdom about... something you never tried?? [&:]

You mentioned some tabletop PTO classics. Good games for their time, with campaigns seldom finished and now collecting dust on some shelves. Then Gary Grigsby published Pacific War (WEGO, thanks to the new possibilities offered by computers), Uncommon Valor (WEGO), War in the Pacific ("Uncommon Valor but with the whole PTO?! Where I do sign?" - WEGO); then some fans with a good idea of what they were doing produced War in the Pacific: AE - i.e. the current gold standard for anything PTO (WEGO).

I'd like to see WitP:AE match my Pearl Harbor 1941 scenario. Or my Savo Island 1942 scenario. Or my Okinawa 1945 scenario.

I'm starting to see a pattern emerge about what you think is best [:)]

Funny, the person accusing people of being like priests and are fanatical in their opinions aren't the one saying one way is rubbish and the other the ultimate. Most here I think enjoy WEGO and also enjoy IGOUGO and see that each has it's place.

Plus the reason I imagine why no one is posting AAR's etc of WEGO games they've played which show off how historically accurate the mechanic can be is because it's just a pointless exercise and the effort to record and show off the data isn't worth it just to show ONE person WEGO can and does work. Just look at the countless CMx2 AAR's over at Battlefront or AAR's of Command Ops which though not WEGO as such as it's not divided into turns by default it's still the same as WEGO without the pausing every few mins or so. There are enough posts on net forums which show how well the mechanic can work if done right, just like IGOUGO can work if done right.

If I was an Armored Recon Specialist (aka Cavalry Scout) in Western Europe and stationed where my war time initial duty position was actually near the border, say 50 meters away from the actual border, and the Soviets decided that they wanted to occupy West Germany, I would not want to wait for my turn to move while the Warsaw Pact forces stopped for tea and a smoke. I would mostly definitely want to detonate any explosives that I was supposed to detonate to make any kind of obstacle and then clearly and with due haste depart the area. I would not wait for the Soviets to state "Okay, your turn!" So WEGO works fine for real life. At least for me, anyway. Someone else will wait for their turn while the Soviets kill them.

I wonder how that works for those who don't like WEGO while they drive on the fast highways?

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If I was an Armored Recon Specialist (aka Cavalry Scout) in Western Europe and stationed where my war time initial duty position was actually near the border, say 50 meters away from the actual border, and the Soviets decided that they wanted to occupy West Germany, I would not want to wait for my turn to move while the Warsaw Pact forces stopped for tea and a smoke. I would mostly definitely want to detonate any explosives that I was supposed to detonate to make any kind of obstacle and then clearly and with due haste depart the area. I would not wait for the Soviets to state "Okay, your turn!" So WEGO works fine for real life. At least for me, anyway. Someone else will wait for their turn while the Soviets kill them.

I wonder how that works for those who don't like WEGO while they drive on the fast highways?

So you would like to take a pause on the highway, and then decide on how to drive for two hours, and then blindly following that course, without any change regardless on how the others move? That is, of course, if you have two hour turns. Maybe a one day turn would be even better? You can drive a long way on an entire day. Although I doubt you get very far...

[;)]

Or didn't I get your point right?

[:)] [:D]