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Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 2:50 am
by mdiehl
Using my stats, Tassafaronga happened and represents a significant outlier. When one is presented with an outlier, (note: it means, highly unusual result statistically speaking), it is often productive to look at the reasons why the outlier exists.

Superior night gunnery on the Japanese part? Nope.
Superior night optics. Nope?
Better torpedo system launched at optimum range? Yes.

Was Tassafaronga typical or even likely given the evidence from all the IJN battles of 1942. Nope. Did the US achieve the same kinds of decisive results in a single battle in 1942 using torpedoes? Yup. Did the Japanese routinely observe enemy vessels at night using their better optics before they were in turn observed? Nope. Was their gunfire routinely more accurate? Nope. Did they experience more collisions among friendly ships than the US did, despite all that night training? Yep.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:10 am
by Chiteng
Originally posted by mdiehl
Using my stats, Tassafaronga happened and represents a significant outlier. When one is presented with an outlier, (note: it means, highly unusual result statistically speaking), it is often productive to look at the reasons why the outlier exists.

Superior night gunnery on the Japanese part? Nope.
Superior night optics. Nope?
Better torpedo system launched at optimum range? Yes.

Was Tassafaronga typical or even likely given the evidence from all the IJN battles of 1942. Nope. Did the US achieve the same kinds of decisive results in a single battle in 1942 using torpedoes? Yup. Did the Japanese routinely observe enemy vessels at night using their better optics before they were in turn observed? Nope. Was their gunfire routinely more accurate? Nope. Did they experience more collisions among friendly ships than the US did, despite all that night training? Yep.
OR it could be that in that time and place, with those men...
The results were median.

ONLY if you insist on apply ONE set or model does it look atypical.

Considering that not only were they surprised, but indeed they were grossly hampered by the stores on the decks.

The model Matrix is using for surface combat will NOT allow this battle to EVER occur. And I do mean NEVER.

And yet it DID. A simulation should be able to replicate reality.
Or it is actually fantasy. In your case, a statistical fantasy.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 7:32 am
by TIMJOT
Originally posted by mdiehl
The FACT is that the mean IJN hit rate was about 3%. At night, around 7%. In their best engagements, around 12%. And that's about the rate that Allied forces achieved under comparable circumstances. So all of that presumedly superior training and doctrine bought was parity.


Here we go again Mdiehl.

First its NOT A FACT, its an assumption based on unvarifiable data.

Second, please eloborate under what specific comparable circumstances did the USN forces acheive a comparable hit rate?

1942- USN hit rate

Bandoeng Straights = 0 hit rate
Java sea = 0 hit rate
Savo Island = 0 hit rate
Cape Esperance = 0 hit rate
1st NBGC = 0 hit rate
2nd NBGC = 0 hit rate
Tassfronga = 0 hit rate

NO I DID NOT FORGET ABOUT BALIKAPAN!
But becuase it was against STATIONARY targets it is NOT comparable to any of the other surface combats in 1942.

But just to make you happy

Balikapan: 48 torps fired, 6 hits = 12.5% hit rate

Which calculates as a average mean hit rate of just 1.7% for USN torpedos. Now tell me again how that is comparable to even your debatable hit rate of 7% for the IJN???????????

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:50 pm
by Drongo
Posted by Mdiehl
The FACT is that the mean IJN hit rate was about 3%. At night, around 7%. In their best engagements, around 12%. And that's about the rate that Allied forces achieved under comparable circumstances. So all of that presumedly superior training and doctrine bought was parity.


Mate, you've been peddling your Yankee Doodle Fanboy agenda for so long, I'm surprised your legs haven't fallen off by now. :p

Are you still using Joseph Czarnecki's analysis for the IJN figures in your claim? I wouldn't have expected that he would agree that the allies were on par with the IJN in torpedo attack effectiveness -

"The acumen of World War Two Imperial Japanese Navy cruiser and destroyermen in torpedo attack is an accepted fact. The range and power of their Type 93 torpedo (dubbed the “Long Lance” by historian Morison) have become the stuff of legend. To call the Japanese surface forces the best at torpedo attack is easily defensible."

Or maybe he's just another Axis Fanboy? ;)

Which source did you use for the comparable Allied figures? Everything I've seen has indicated pretty much what TIMJOT stated.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 7:34 pm
by Nikademus
There's no compelling evidence that Japanese night training gave them any advantage in gun accuracy
Both statements demonstrate that a biased observer sees or counts only the things to which their prejudices dispose them. The "facts" include that in some Solomons engagements USN lookouts spotted IJN ships before either the US radar or Japanese spotting scopes registered an opponent.
The IJN's "superiority in night fighting" is a self propagating myth
The FACTS are that (blah blah blah)

Interesting. Lets see what acomplished author Richard Frank has to say about these little tidbits and the subject they refer too:

**

Fitted on each side of the five surface encounters like bookends were the lopsided Japanese victories at Savo Island and Tassafaronga. These appear the more impressive as the Japanese entered both with much the weaker material strength. The Americans successes at Cape Esperance and in the Lee-Kondo action came with the balance of forces closer and found the winners in virtually as much disarray as the losers and the losses less desparate. Thus, each side won two of the encounters. The fifth and potentially tie-breaking action, the Battle of Friday the Thirteenth, presents more difficulty in classification. Tactically, the signifigantly larger American personell and material losses in the nighttime surface-ship action would award the decision to the Japanese, but the material balance in ships was perhaps redressed with the sinking of the Hiei during the next day, and the battle's outcome is difficult to segregate from the fact that it thwarted critical Japanese intentions. The above table reflecting the cause of the losses demonstrates that the Japanese gave a lot worse than they got at night, but that the Americans fliers and submariners kept the balance of losses close overall The Japanese submarines sustained serious losses, but posted considerably more weighty accomplishments than their American counter-parts in sinking the Wasp and disabling the Saratoga and North Carolina

There is no doubt that intensive study, development and practice prepared the Japanese effectively for the type of night surface clashes forced upon them by American possession of the airfield at Guadalcanal. It is markedly evident that American equipment was deficient for night battles. The record of the one plain American advantage, radar, is mixed. American mis-management squandered it at Savo Island, the Friday the Thirteenth action and Tassafaronga. Moreover, Japanese optics achieved sightings prior to any recorded American radar contact at Savo Island adn the Lee-Kondo battleship tilt. Radar played a crucial, if not decisive role at Cape Esperance, but Goto's errors materially assisted Scott to victory. Only Admiral Lee extracted full benefit from his flagship's electronic equipment, and here we can acknowledge that radar probably made the difference between success and failure-with the campaign hanging in the balance.

***

The FACTS are?........ indeed.

---------------------

"On falsehoods: "In order to tell a lie really well, you have to incorporate some real facts. If you don't have any real facts, you can't lie really well."
--Nick Nolte

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 7:42 pm
by TIMJOT
THE NUMBERS
*1942 TORPEDO HIT RATES

PLEASE EXCUSE THE APPEARANCE OF THE LIST. I SEEM TO BE HAVEING TROUBLE WITH THE LIST FUNCTION
  • ----------- USN ---------- IJN
    ----------------------------------------------------------
  • Balikapan -------- **12.5% --------- -
  • Bandoeng ------- 0% ------------- 12.5%
  • JavaSea ------- 0% ------------- 1.8%
  • Sunda ------- 0% ------------- 13.5%
  • Savo ------- 0 % ------------- 13.1%
  • Blue ------- - ------------- 25%
  • Esperance------- 0% ------------- 0%
  • IstGuadcanal ------- 0% ------------- 12.5%
  • 2ndGuadacanal------- 0% ------------ 3.9%
  • Tassffronga------- 0% ------------ 12.7%
    -------------------------------
    Hit Rates -------------1.3% ---------------- 10.5%


Now if you throw out the best result on both sides as abberations then you have a USN hit rate of 0% and an IJN hit rate of 8.75%

The numbers get a little better in 43, but I do not think anyone disputes that by then USN proficiency in Radar had negated the earlier IJN night fighting advantage

If you add in the numbers for 1943 the the numbers come out to a 4.3% hit rate for the USN and a 6.8% hit rate for the IJN, again if you through out the two respective best results then you get a hit rate of 2.7% for USN vs 5.6% for the IJN

So even useing Czernecki debatable numbers. Where exactly is the parity/superiority for the USN of which you speak?

* Numbers attained by Joseph Czernecki anaylsis and USN DD operations of WWII (Theodore Roscoe)

** Hits were against stationary merchant shiping

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 7:54 pm
by mdiehl
Mate, you've been peddling your Yankee Doodle Fanboy agenda for so long, I'm surprised your legs haven't fallen off by now.
To deploy the term "Fanboy" you have to have a clue wtf it means.
Are you still using Joseph Czarnecki's analysis for the IJN figures in your claim? I wouldn't have expected that he would agree that the allies were on par with the IJN in torpedo attack effectiveness -
Cute. Only I did not say that US torpedo attack effectiveness was on par. I said the hit rates under comparable, favorable circumstances were similar. Clearly since IJN torps packed a much more lethal charge, and were much mroe likely to detonate (in 1942), IJN torps were better in re "effectiveness" in 1942.
"The acumen of World War Two Imperial Japanese Navy cruiser and destroyermen in torpedo attack is an accepted fact. The range and power of their Type 93 torpedo (dubbed the “Long Lance” by historian Morison) have become the stuff of legend. To call the Japanese surface forces the best at torpedo attack is easily defensible."
I agree that it is the "stuff of legend." I also agree that the Japanese brought torpedo attack to a more effective level than any other navy. Were the phrase "torpedo attack" homologous to "night combat effectiveness" (accuracy of gunfire, observation, cohesion, CAC, and not ramming another ship in your own formation are for some reason disregarded when one talks about night combat abilities), then one would have to say that the Japanese were superior at night combat.
Or maybe he's just another Axis Fanboy?
Morrison had many agendas. He's inconsistent in his criticism of the IJN and the USN. He louds, for example, IJN performance at Savo but heavily criticises USN performance at Balikpapan. He attributes the Savo victory to Japanese superior night fighting. A more nuanced and better informed POV would not that the US TF had been at high alert for 48 hours, that the disposition of USN covering forces in the area were poor, and that in WW2, the odds tended to favor attacking surface forces over defending forces.

So what are the agendas, conscious or not? 1. Praise for a worthy foe turned ally during the Cold War. 2. Praising the defeated increases ones own prestige (so Morrison has simply followed in the footsteps, for example, of Julius comment on Vercingitorex). 3. Emphasising the lack of naval preparedness, training and force in early 1942 is a good way to get the US Senate and House to keep appropriations money flowing during teh cold war. Basically "Hey, if Japan could do this to us because we did not spend enough money, imagine what the USSR could do! So Spend More Money on the Navy." When you consider the interservice rivalry at the time, and the increasing emphasis on the USAF strategic bomber forces, there's alot of "context" to mull over.


As to torpedoes. This is largely non-sequitur because I did not suggest that the Americans were equally effective with torpedoes. but, for the record-- ]

Japanese modal hit rate: 0. That means in most BATTLES, the "typical" result in any Japanese torpedo attack will be zero hits for the entire enagement. Mean hit rate: about 3%. Mean night time hit rate: 8%. Hit rate under exceptional circumstances (for example, fatigued crews unalerted to presence of enemy at Savo, about 12%. Same as Balikpapan. BTW, the targets at Balikpapan were not all stationary.).

What this ought to tell you is that the outcome of an engagement had nothing to do with simplistic panglossian pap like "Combatant X was better at night combat because according to the theory they should have been better." You must instead focus on the circumstances in which a significant victory can be achieved. Savo was very much like Balikpapan.

Were I writing this is a set of CRTs for example for a boardgame, the flowchart for resolving combat (assume I'm talking about a grand strategic game like PTO) would be something like this. (Bear in mind that this is not really a tactical game, so things like range are not tracked).

1. Determine whether attacking or defending TF is taken by surprise. This would have to account for tactical info from decryption or, from the more likely source, aerial recon. In the Solomons/New Guinea area, coastwatchers would matter.

2. Determine whether the attacking or defending TF is fatigued. A TF that had previously conducted a shore bombardment mission, fought off a significant aerial attack, or been engaged in another surface combat mission in roughly the same time frame would automatically come with this modifier.

3. Determine whether the engagement is at night.

Roll a die. Low dr/DR equate with a complete miss on all torpedo attacks for the engagement. The result table would be structured such that roughly 60% of the time (it depends on the number and kinds of dice), the result is a complete miss on all attacks.

For each of the above conditions met, a positive DRM is applied. When "some hits achieved" is a result go to another table.

Number of hits achieved = # torpedoes fired x (.06+3% for a night engagement, +/-3% if surprising the enemy/surprised by the enemy, +/-3% if enemy is fatigue/you are fatigued).

For IJN torps. All hits come in clusters of 3. The Japanese player may assign hits to targets at this time but any target must be struck by at least three of the torps. Remnant fraction may be applied to another target.

For USN torps, in 1942, if the firing TF includes any vessel that is not torpedo armed, halve the number of hits in order to account for use of gun doctrine tactics and dud torpedoes. The Allied player may then apply hits in pairs to targets as desired. Any remnant hit is discarded.

If one player has acheived a "surprise" attack, following resolution of torpedo attack, that player may withdraw. If neither player has achieved a surprise attack, go to gun combat. A Wild melee ensues. The CRT "to hit" will be comparable for all participants, but fatigued units will suffer an adverse to hit drm.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:11 pm
by Chiteng
Originally posted by mdiehl
To deploy the term "Fanboy" you have to have a clue wtf it means.



Cute. Only I did not say that US torpedo attack effectiveness was on par. I said the hit rates under comparable, favorable circumstances were similar. Clearly since IJN torps packed a much more lethal charge, and were much mroe likely to detonate (in 1942), IJN torps were better in re "effectiveness" in 1942.



I agree that it is the "stuff of legend." I also agree that the Japanese brought torpedo attack to a more effective level than any other navy. Were the phrase "torpedo attack" homologous to "night combat effectiveness" (accuracy of gunfire, observation, cohesion, CAC, and not ramming another ship in your own formation are for some reason disregarded when one talks about night combat abilities), then one would have to say that the Japanese were superior at night combat.



Morrison had many agendas. He's inconsistent in his criticism of the IJN and the USN. He louds, for example, IJN performance at Savo but heavily criticises USN performance at Balikpapan. He attributes the Savo victory to Japanese superior night fighting. A more nuanced and better informed POV would not that the US TF had been at high alert for 48 hours, that the disposition of USN covering forces in the area were poor, and that in WW2, the odds tended to favor attacking surface forces over defending forces.

So what are the agendas, conscious or not? 1. Praise for a worthy foe turned ally during the Cold War. 2. Praising the defeated increases ones own prestige (so Morrison has simply followed in the footsteps, for example, of Julius comment on Vercingitorex). 3. Emphasising the lack of naval preparedness, training and force in early 1942 is a good way to get the US Senate and House to keep appropriations money flowing during teh cold war. Basically "Hey, if Japan could do this to us because we did not spend enough money, imagine what the USSR could do! So Spend More Money on the Navy." When you consider the interservice rivalry at the time, and the increasing emphasis on the USAF strategic bomber forces, there's alot of "context" to mull over.


As to torpedoes. This is largely non-sequitur because I did not suggest that the Americans were equally effective with torpedoes. but, for the record-- ]

Japanese modal hit rate: 0. That means in most BATTLES, the "typical" result in any Japanese torpedo attack will be zero hits for the entire enagement. Mean hit rate: about 3%. Mean night time hit rate: 8%. Hit rate under exceptional circumstances (for example, fatigued crews unalerted to presence of enemy at Savo, about 12%. Same as Balikpapan. BTW, the targets at Balikpapan were not all stationary.).

What this ought to tell you is that the outcome of an engagement had nothing to do with simplistic panglossian pap like "Combatant X was better at night combat because according to the theory they should have been better." You must instead focus on the circumstances in which a significant victory can be achieved. Savo was very much like Balikpapan.

Now, back to the issue, which was not whether or not the IJN were better torpedomen with a better weapon in 1942 (which they were) but whether they were overall superior at night combat (which they were not).


I can only infer that Mdiehl does NOT wish to see a Jap advantage
modeled in the game engine.

I found TIMJOT and Nick stats quite revealing. I have no idea
why they clash with Mdiehl's as so badly, but obviously they do.

I myself go by the evidence of outcome.

Savo happened Tass happened Bali happened.

If they cant happen in the game, something is wrong.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:20 pm
by mdiehl
I can only infer that Mdiehl does NOT wish to see a Jap advantage modeled in the game engine.
You would, as usual, be incorrect. I'd like to see the advantage that they had correctly modeled.
I found TIMJOT and Nick stats quite revealing. I have no idea why they clash with Mdiehl's as so badly, but obviously they do.
No, they don't. They correctly show that in most engagements the most likely result of a torpedo attack by any navy was, during WW2, "Zero hits, none, zilch, nada."
Savo happened Tass happened Bali happened. If they cant happen in the game, something is wrong.
I don't understand your complaint with UV then. Tass can happen if the Japanese achuieve surprise. True, at Tass the Japanese weren't surprised. However, since UV does not (and of necessaity can not) account for all of the details that make things like Tass happen, linking it to surprise is a pretty good proxy IMO.

My best IJN combat

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:24 pm
by mogami
Hi, I don't know about other peoples results but in UV I had a IJN TF of 2 CL and 4 DD encounter USN TF at night.
IJN torpedo attack (IJN surprise)
sank 4 USN CA and 3 DD. IJN TF broke off action (it was a fast transport) landed supply it was carring and retired home with zero hits scored on it.

(I've had other very similiar results scored against me as well. And I have done this more then once. One reason some of my opponents never score like this is they always make IJN TF's of 25 ships. (and I see them coming)

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:27 pm
by Chiteng
Originally posted by mdiehl
You would, as usual, be incorrect. I'd like to see the advantage that they had correctly modeled.



No, they don't. They correctly show that in most engagements the most likely result of a torpedo attack by any navy was, during WW2, "Zero hits, none, zilch, nada."



I don't understand your complaint with UV then. Tass can happen if the Japanese achuieve surprise. True, at Tass the Japanese weren't surprised. However, since UV does not (and of necessaity can not) account for all of the details that make things like Tass happen, linking it to surprise is a pretty good proxy IMO.


That isnt true Mdiehl. I code for a living. It would be a minor change to the existing engine. Someone at Matrix doesnt want it done. I cannot say why.

Re: My best IJN combat

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:29 pm
by Chiteng
Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, I don't know about other peoples results but in UV I had a IJN TF of 2 CL and 4 DD encounter USN TF at night.
IJN torpedo attack (IJN surprise)
sank 4 USN CA and 3 DD. IJN TF broke off action (it was a fast transport) landed supply it was carring and retired home with zero hits scored on it.

(I've had other very similiar results scored against me as well. And I have done this more then once. One reason some of my opponents never score like this is they always make IJN TF's of 25 ships. (and I see them coming)


And at Tass Tanaka was surprised, NOT surprising.
That will not happen with this game engine. EVER.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:32 pm
by Chiteng
Originally posted by mdiehl
You would, as usual, be incorrect. I'd like to see the advantage that they had correctly modeled.



No, they don't. They correctly show that in most engagements the most likely result of a torpedo attack by any navy was, during WW2, "Zero hits, none, zilch, nada."



I don't understand your complaint with UV then. Tass can happen if the Japanese achuieve surprise. True, at Tass the Japanese weren't surprised. However, since UV does not (and of necessaity can not) account for all of the details that make things like Tass happen, linking it to surprise is a pretty good proxy IMO.



BTW Mdiehl, the conclusions that they have posted, do NOT mirror
your statement.

Tanaka

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:39 pm
by mogami
Hi Two things

The USN had surprise but wasted it. (They held fire long enough for Tanaka to find out they were there and fire first.)

Second UV/WITP are operational level games. All that matters is battles of this sort happen. The how and why are not important (because they are not modeled)

Small IJN TF's can and do destroy larger USN TF (and visa a versa)

There is no way for the player to know in advance the outcome of any battle. Over the course of the campaign the operational results will be viable.

(To get the result you want with the proper "notes" All that would need doing is when Japanese achive surprise have it say "IJN TF surprised" and then resolve battle the same as normal Japanese achiving surprise. It won't have any effect on campaign but it would let you say IJN was surprised and still won.
(You could also have reverse for USN TF's )

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:43 pm
by mdiehl
Radar played a crucial, if not decisive role at Cape Esperance, but Goto's errors materially assisted Scott to victory.
The facts indeed support my position. But it's pretty typical of the mythmaking process to observe that Goto's errors attributed materially to Scott's victory at Esperence, whilst attributing Savo to differences in training. Savo was a clear cut case of fatigue and poor disposition (as a result of cmommand level decisions) handing the Japanese a victory. Take away the fatigue or add better command decisions and, IMO, the Japanese walk away from Savo with, at best, a draw.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:53 pm
by Nikademus
Originally posted by mdiehl
The facts indeed support my position. But it's pretty typical of the mythmaking process to observe that Goto's errors attributed materially to Scott's victory at Esperence, whilst attributing Savo to differences in training. Savo was a clear cut case of fatigue and poor disposition (as a result of cmommand level decisions) handing the Japanese a victory. Take away the fatigue or add better command decisions and, IMO, the Japanese walk away from Savo with, at best, a draw.


lie. Richard Frank does not support this opinion in his book. Reread the post. Better, re-check the book out of the library.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:01 pm
by mdiehl
I was not claiming that Richard Frank necessarily support anything said here. So jam the accusation "lie" up your blowhole until it get's stuck in your craw. Get back to me when you have the intellectual honesty to address what's been said, rather than whatever straw man you've concocted for your follies.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:05 pm
by Nikademus
the only Straw Man here is you.

You claimed there is no compelling evidence that IJN night fighting ability was a level above the US.

Frank differs. You've claimed to have read the book. Rage all you wish. Intellectual dishonesty is something you are well versed in.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:32 pm
by mdiehl
Whatever.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 10:08 pm
by Drongo
Posted by Mdiehl
To deploy the term "Fanboy" you have to have a clue wtf it means.

So hearing something repeatedly does not bring understanding? My apologies, I assumed too much.
Cute. Only I did not say that US torpedo attack effectiveness was on par. I said the hit rates under comparable, favorable circumstances were similar. Clearly since IJN torps packed a much more lethal charge, and were much mroe likely to detonate (in 1942), IJN torps were better in re "effectiveness" in 1942.


I again, obviously mistaken, assumed from your statement that a naval force's torpedo attack effectiveness, in the end, is primarily measured in its ability to get hits on ships. Apologies again for being such a fool.

The lethality of the type 93 is not relevant if you're using Czarnecki's figures, nor is the dud rate as he included that in his hit rate (as a best guess). Czarnecki was concerned only with measuring actual hits, not effective.

Your original statement was that, since the Allies "proved" they could achieve a comparable hit rate to the IJN under similar conditions, the IJN's training and doctrine gained them no advantage in reality.

Since you are using hit rates to disprove part of the "myth" of Japanese Night Fighting Superiority, it brings back the question "where are the relevant Allied figures" that will show a parity not just in hit rates achieved in a Savo/Balikpapan situation but also those regulary achieved by the IJN in its varied clashes with the Allies? As a clarification, I do not feel that the circumstances of Balikpapan are comparable to that of Savo but that can be dealt with if so desired.
agree that it is the "stuff of legend." I also agree that the Japanese brought torpedo attack to a more effective level than any other navy. Were the phrase "torpedo attack" homologous to "night combat effectiveness" (accuracy of gunfire, observation, cohesion, CAC, and not ramming another ship in your own formation are for some reason disregarded when one talks about night combat abilities), then one would have to say that the Japanese were superior at night combat.


So the Japanese brought torpedo attack to a more effective level than any other navy and yet you also indicated that despite their training and doctrine in that area, they ended up only on par with the allies in hit rates? Can you clarify exactly how you personally measure torpedo attack effectiveness and what role torpedo hit rates play in that measurement?

As to observation, cohesion, etc, I've noticed various comments you've made on the relative merits of both sides abilities in those areas and I'm yet to see any hard facts that could justify your statements (such as those on the lack of any real IJN advantage from their spotting/optics). I would be interested if you could give specific details rather than simply dismiss a generally accepted advantage as just another "myth".

As to the rest of your post, it looks interesting so I'll give it a solid read tomorrow.

Cheers