Matrix Games Forums

With guys like Frag representing us to the developers, it is no wonder they aren't going to do this

He does not represent them or us. He has some inside insight to what has lead up to the game we have on our hard-drives. As a beta tester, he has had longer to learn the game then we. He has offered hours in assisting us here here on the forums with problems, bugs, mis-understanding how things work, interperting the manual and so on. He is a wonderful asset to the community.

He is, however, not a representitive to the developers. Reading between the lines, you might even infer he agrees with the idea, but it doesn't matter what he thinks as the developers will do what they wish. He has even suggested the flexible upgrade path was championed in the beta process, but was not adopted by the developers. They do check these forums. They have said so many times. If they have nothing to add, it is because they have noting to add. Perhaps they are considering adding the upgrade route people want. Perhaps they are curious as to how this debate will go, and haven't decided yet. Perhaps they are so focused on the first patch, getting a little sleep, heading to the boardgame convention, and finishing GG World at War that they have not have time to address this issue.

In the meantime, the game is what it is. Some have suggested how we can make the best of it and enjoy it in its current state. Maybe the upgrade path will change in the future, but if it does not, it is not reason to just walk away from the whole game.
Tony

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Frag is a smart guy. The fact that he inflates "let us equip airgroups with planes that the game lets us build that would have been equipped with them had sufficient numbers been available" into "I demand that I can research the F/A-18 because it is better! " and "Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins. " suggests he is not the right guy to carry this message to the devs.

Should we conduct a vote and elect someone else to carry our message to the devs? I didn't realize he had any special influence to seek an audience with them, or for that matter, an exclusive charter to do so. [;)]

Tony

Mr.Frag is great. His help on the forum and hard work with the game is greatly appreciated.

However, in regard to this discussion, having a rule where you cannot use more than 400 Franks, because that's all the Japanese used in the war is akin to having a rule where you can't invade Midway because the Japanese didn't manage to.

bump

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

It is plain stupid if you want to upgrade 2 groups of F2As to F4F-4s, if you have 72 F4F-4s, but only 10 F4F-3s, you have to wait longer. That is not historical, that is just being Anal.

Can we keep the misinformation out of the thread. It just confused people. If you have F4F-4's, your F2A's will go directly to F4F-4's. The code looks forward 2 models and backwards 1 when checking for available aircraft.

Now for the rest of the thread ...

Here's the basic flaw with most of these statements. You are developing aircraft. Each new aircraft is built on stuff learned by inventing the previous generation aircraft.

You can't simple turn around and say screw that, I demand that I can research the F/A-18 because it is better! I want to ignore all these other aircraft completely. It doesn't work, you can't jump from the Wright brothers to the space shuttle in one leap just because you want to. It is just beyond my belief that i am seeing this kind ot nonsense from grogs [8|]

It is cracking me up that I even have to defend this. Hi, I playing the Allies ... "can we skip all those useless aircraft that had to be designed and give me all P-51's and b-29's ? I know they were invented so I don't need any of the other aircraft. [8|]"

[8|]

Then the problem is the design of research and development.

If research and development in the game required one to produce Plane A before producing plane B, then you'd have a point. However, that is not a requirement, thus what you say has little bearing.

Since the game does allow one to research plane B without first researching plane A and it allows it to be produced, then it should allow the player to equip his squadrons of that type with that model. ie: Jap army fighters with new jap army fighter models.

Should we conduct a vote and elect someone else to carry our message to the devs? I didn't realize he had any special influence to seek an audience with them, or for that matter, an exclusive charter to do so.

They ignore me more then they ignore you [:D]

And you had also deal with the Allied side of the equation instead of just complaining that I can't count so I have too many aircraft of type x in my pool. Simple answer to that one: get more aircraft shot down, you will not have a problem with surplus aircraft [X(]

If Japan can change aircraft, the Allied having roughly 200 times the production capabilities should also be able to change aircraft. If and when you come of with any form of reasoning that says "No, Japan gets it because ..." feel free to post it.

All I see in this whole thread is I got these shitty xxx and I want to replace them with these better yyy's. Why on earth should that be a Japan ONLY feature???

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

With guys like Frag representing us to the developers, it is no wonder they aren't going to do this.

He doesn't represent anyone...he's just a tester that posts a lot. If you want to be heard, rifle off a pm to heath or billings.

If research and development in the game required one to produce Plane A before producing plane B, then you'd have a point. However, that is not a requirement, thus what you say has little bearing.

Thats actually simple to add to the code ... careful, you might get what you don't wish for [X(]

Aircraft designs progressed through many many designs ... some of them made production levels, others didn't and were stepping stones to other designs.

All contributed to moving the state of aircraft design forward, yet some were definitely steps backward.

Just because the code itself doesn't have these specific steps in R&D represented does not mean they were not required. Pretending that The F8F would have been designed directy from the F2A without all those steps inbetween is just silly.

If you guys want something that gamey, go make your case. I will not because I see it as beyond silly to pretend that you can just go from A to Z without going through the rest of the alphabet.

There seems to be about 3 completely different things running in this thread, might be a good idea to split it up for clarity purposes.

Hi all,

I was "lurking" in this thread since beggining but can someone please explain me with few simple examples what is the problem here in current WitP implementatation of aircraft production and upgrade paths (like at this date this squadron can't upgrade to that aircraft type from this aircraft type because of xyz)?

Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"

Well, I'd only change things for Japan because it's the only theatre in which it operates.. for the Allies, it's the secondary theatre.. that's why imo.

However, I'm dropping out of this discussion. I can see Mr.Frag's logic. I imagine 2by3 went with the system for game balancing reasons. I consider the reasons flawed, but them's the breaks, eh..

Edit: And what's silly, imo is allowing you to build something you can't use.. if we're asking for something silly, it's only because the game offers us it right up to the point where we try to use it!

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

I was "lurking" in this thread since beggining but can someone please explain me with few simple examples what is the problem here in current WitP implementatation of aircraft production and upgrade paths (like at this date this squadron can't upgrade to that aircraft type from this aircraft type because of xyz)?

Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"

Most oscar squadrons have the top ugrade being the oscar 2. Thus you can't upgrade to say the tony/frank even if you ahve the available aircraft.

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

I was "lurking" in this thread since beggining but can someone please explain me with few simple examples what is the problem here in current WitP implementatation of aircraft production and upgrade paths (like at this date this squadron can't upgrade to that aircraft type from this aircraft type because of xyz)?

Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"

Most oscar squadrons have the top ugrade being the oscar 2. Thus you can't upgrade to say the tony/frank even if you ahve the available aircraft.

OK... but can you please be more specific (and use full aircraft type names - like "Ki-43-IIa Oscar")?


Leo "Apollo11"

I appreciate Frag's efforts, in beta and after in helping us all understand the beast that is Witp. Frag is indeed a good resource and has been helpful on a large number of issues. On this one, he doesn't appear to be.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
If Japan can change aircraft, the Allied having roughly 200 times the production capabilities should also be able to change aircraft. If and when you come of with any form of reasoning that says "No, Japan gets it because ..." feel free to post it.

All I see in this whole thread is I got these shitty xxx and I want to replace them with these better yyy's. Why on earth should that be a Japan ONLY feature???

Well, I don't think anyone has said it should be Japan only. If there is a problem in the US upgrade paths, then it should be addressed too.

In a perfect world, I would prefer to

1. Scrap research altogether.
2. Make converting production more expensive in terms of time and political points.
3. Make upgrading squadrons more expensive in terms of PP and time

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

I was "lurking" in this thread since beggining but can someone please explain me with few simple examples what is the problem here in current WitP implementatation of aircraft production and upgrade paths (like at this date this squadron can't upgrade to that aircraft type from this aircraft type because of xyz)?

Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"

Most oscar squadrons have the top ugrade being the oscar 2. Thus you can't upgrade to say the tony/frank even if you ahve the available aircraft.

OK... but can you please be more specific (and use full aircraft type names - like "Ki-43-IIa Oscar")?


Leo "Apollo11"

What more do you need to know?

You can build as many franks as your production allows, but the game restricts you from upgrading most of your army fighter groups to anything beyond the oscar 2.

Some feel that one should be able to upgrade units within the particular force structure ija/ijn and within aircraft class, fighter for fighter.

Thus, if in 1945 you have 500 franks in the pool why shouldn't you be able to upgrade your oscar 2 fighter units to the better aircraft as opposed to leaving them half strength with an inferior model?

That's what the discussion is about.

As far as it being historical or not, couldnt it just be a toggle such as those for non-historical submarine use which would allow players to make their own descision before starting a game?

Dawg

Hi al,

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

What more do you need to know?

Everything (see below)... [:D]

You can build as many franks as your production allows, but the game restricts you from upgrading most of your army fighter groups to anything beyond the oscar 2.

Some feel that one should be able to upgrade units within the particular force structure ija/ijn and within aircraft class, fighter for fighter.

Thus, if in 1945 you have 500 franks in the pool why shouldn't you be able to upgrade your oscar 2 fighter units to the better aircraft as opposed to leaving them half strength with an inferior model?

That's what the discussion is about.

I just got this list either from here (forum) or from Spooky's site:

[font="Courier New"]
Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
[/font]

Is this accurate and correct?


If yes I see the problem here (because there are "dead ends" that doesn't make any sense)... [:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

Frag,

your reasoning is faulty. The Japanese player building extra Ki-84's instead of Ki-43's is not 'building the wrong thing' as you say, he is building the correct thing. There was no star in the night sky saying that the 43rd Sentai (for example) could not upgrade from Ki-43's to Ki-84's.

I also dislike this Japan is going to lose mentality. That reasoning is almost as flawed as the speed wins all in air to air combat mentality.

In 1904 Japan went to war with a great power, Russia. Japan was just a pissy little Asian country and everyone knew Asians couldn't fight. If Russia had won we would all be sitting around saying to each other, mock wisely, 'Russia was destined to win, no doubt'.

WW2 was certainly a different situation and i think Japans chances are 1% or less, but that is not zero.
I, for one, plan on trying to win, not to extend the war. I realize i will probably never win but it will not stop being my priority.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi al,

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

What more do you need to know?

Everything (see below)... [:D]

You can build as many franks as your production allows, but the game restricts you from upgrading most of your army fighter groups to anything beyond the oscar 2.

Some feel that one should be able to upgrade units within the particular force structure ija/ijn and within aircraft class, fighter for fighter.

Thus, if in 1945 you have 500 franks in the pool why shouldn't you be able to upgrade your oscar 2 fighter units to the better aircraft as opposed to leaving them half strength with an inferior model?

That's what the discussion is about.

I just got this list either from here (forum) or from Spooky's site:

[font="Courier New"]
Ki-27_Nate_______Jan-37__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-Ib_Oscar___Dec-41__KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Fighter_________Army
Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Ki-43-IIa_Oscar__Jan-43__Fighter_________Army
Ki-44_IIb_Tojo___Aug-42__Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-45_KA1a_Nick__Dec-42__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-45_KA1b_Nick__Jan-43__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Ki-45_KA1c_Nick__Apr-44__Night_Fighter___Army
Ki-46_III_Dinah__Oct-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_________Army
KI-61_KA1c_Tony__Aug-42__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ia_Frank___Aug-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Ki-84-Ic_Frank___Dec-44__Fighter_________Army
Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Ki-100_Tony______Feb-45__Fighter_________Army
Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Ki-102a_Randy____Jul-44__Fighter_Bomber__Army
[/font]

Is this accurate and correct?


If yes I see the problem here (because there are "dead ends" that doesn't make any sense)... [:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

By jove, you got it. That is what the whole debate is over.