Matrix Games Forums

In the center, reality, on the left, as it is, on the right, as Nils wants it.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Literally it means "son of" as does "ovitch" and "ovna" in Russian (for men and women respectively). However both my father and his father were named Oscar. I do not know when (or indeed, even if) the naming custom changed.

The Russian suffixes -itch -vitch or -ovitch mean son of. And the suffixes -evna or -ovna mean daughter of. The Russians use this as a middle name. For example:

Pyotr Ilyitch Tchaikovsky means Peter son of Ilya Tchaikovsky. Tchaikovsky is the family name and Ilyitch is the patronymical.

Mariya Yuryevna Sharapova. It means Maria daughter of Yuriy Sharapov.

Notice that Russian female family names have female endings -a after -ev or -ov or -aya when the name ending of the male family name ends with -iy. -aya replaces -iy or -y. For example the wife of Tchaikovsky would be Tchaikovskaya if she took the family name of her husband.

Non Russian family names have different rules for endings etc.

I can only think of another country using different endings for family names for men and women and that is Iceland. Vigdis Finbogadottir means Vigdis, daughter of Finboga.

Norway have a lot of names with the suffix -sen. It comes from son of and is the same as the Swedish suffix -son. Denmark also use the suffix -sen. I think that the family named truly showed the name of your father (like a patronymic), but it doesn't anymore. The family name stays the same from generation to generation.

Strange today for many foreigners is that many Norwegian women take the family name of their husband and KEEP their family name too, thus creating a double family name. For example: Maria Pettersen would marry Tore Jensen. Then she would take the name Maria Pettersen Jensen.

Or the woman may even choose to keep their family name without adding the family name of their husbands.

I have even heard examples that the man takes the family name of the woman too. Either in combination with his own (to give them equal family names) or instead of his own family name. I started my gaming community as a student in Trondheim and two gamers who fell in love and got married decided their family name by rolling 1d20 to decide. The woman won and they both have now only her family name. So it's a lot 1d20 can be used to decide. [;)]

Norway had no tradition to give names to the profession of the person, like what was common in Britain, USA and Germany. Smith, Taylor, Carpenter etc. In German Bauer (farmer), Schumacher (shoemaker), Fischer (fisherman).

So your surname of Håkanson doesn't indicate today your father's name was Håkan. Family names stay the same now within the family.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

In the center, reality, on the left, as it is, on the right, as Nils wants it.

I think the one to the right looks just excellent. [:)]

Also, I prefer the V & V lakes as I drew them in the latest version. I think they are more faithfull to reality, and so as Steve, I change my vote to NO for extending the Vättern 1 hexside, as I can manage to make it appear longer without using an hexisde, just drawing it in the hex.

You know, I like both variations. I have a slight preference for the one on the right (the most recent) but I see nothing especially awful about the previous map for this area. Good arguments can be made for both translations of the terrain into the game map.

Borger,

Thanks for the stuff on the names. I did know that 'ovna' meant "daughter of". That's from all the Russian plays and novels I read when I was younger (Dostoevsky, Turgenev, Tolstoy). But the variations from Iceland were news to me.

Here is the status on the votes as of tonight (France). The proposals who were at 100% NO or 100% YES were excluded for clarity. The V& V proposals had 100% to add an hexside to Vättern, but the latest drawing shows that it may be better to just draw it longer without adding an hexside, so I do not put it to the votes again.
I underline the proposals for which only few people voted, for easy reference.

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Gothenburg (41,38) (Toed) : Renammed Göteborg.
3 Voters : 33 % YES, 67 % NO.
City, Minor Port /

Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Country / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (ullern) : Add. Need changing the hex west of Stockholm All Sea hexside
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Lake /

Boden Fortified (27,46) (Toed) : Fortify hex all directions
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Fortification / Sweden

Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Boden) (Lulea).
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Sweden

Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Turku (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
6 Voters : 67 % YES, 33 % NO.
Minor Port / Finland

Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Resource / Sweden

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Sea Zone Boundary North Sea - Norwegian Sea (33,34) (ullern) : Go to hex (33,34), halfway between Trondheim & Bergen
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Sea Zone /

Norway have a lot of names with the suffix -sen. It comes from son of and is the same as the Swedish suffix -son. Denmark also use the suffix -sen. I think that the family named truly showed the name of your father (like a patronymic), but it doesn't anymore. The family name stays the same from generation to generation.

Hey Borger, so this means you are "Borger, son of Borger" [:D] [:D]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Norway have a lot of names with the suffix -sen. It comes from son of and is the same as the Swedish suffix -son. Denmark also use the suffix -sen. I think that the family named truly showed the name of your father (like a patronymic), but it doesn't anymore. The family name stays the same from generation to generation.

Hey Borger, so this means you are "Borger, son of Borger" [:D] [:D]

Yep. [:D]

But in my family we have a tradition of letting the first name of the first born son
alternate between Anders and Borger. My father's name Ander and my grandfather's
name was Borger. His father's name was Anders etc. So the big pressure is on me
to continue the tradition to name my first son Anders. But I have disappointed my mother
by not giving them any grandchildren. [;)] So maybe the tradition ends with me. [X(]

Well, my oldest sister has 2 children and her son is called Andreas (almost Anders) so maybe they're satisfied with that. I hope.

Actually Patrice, you took it one step further than I did, I was drawing just to see how it mapped, and did not suggest any solution really, except that I voted yes for an earlier made suggestion. But I think you did get it quite pretty there.

To sum up the changes you made:
A) move the rail line one hex
B) put on Hjälmaren lake
C) delete one strait hex side from the Stockholm area.

I am not sure that the last change is needed. I might even think it is better with the strait back on. But the rest stays the way Patrice did it.

I want to hear what c92nichj thinks before I am decided, because he was the one who brought this up, and he seemed to have some knowledge on the matter.

There is one thing though: and that is for both the grapichs artists and Patrice: when lakes or coastal are drawn into a hex where they don't affect movment then they should be made to go less than halfway into the hex. That is a very good rule of thumb, which there are a few ok exceptions too, but as a general rule is good. Example to use of the rule is the western part of the fjord from Stockholm on the picture Patrice made above. When I started to think about it, I suddenly was unsure of wheter Patrice ment that there was an all sea hexside on the this hex (possibly he forgot to add the straight) or if the fjord drawn there don't hamper movement at all. That's gonna stay confusing unless the size of that fjord is reduced.

While on the subject of lakes. I'd just want to point something out. Mälaren is a lake and not a fjord as some have called it. It looks on the (WiF) map as you could access Mälaren directly from the Baltic Sea area. This is just not true. You could sail a smaller ship up into Mälaren but certainly not a fleet of ships. To do this you have to pass very narrow canals through the cities of Stockholm or Södertälje passing several bridges and locks in the process. So any WiF relevant large operations should not be possible directly from the Baltic Sea into Mälaren.

I haven't played the game enough to know how a change would impact any operations in the area. So my questions is: Is/was there a playbalance issue to give sea-access to the hexes west and southwest of Stockholm? and if it is changed is it practical?

ORIGINAL: Toed
While on the subject of lakes. I'd just want to point something out. Mälaren is a lake and not a fjord as some have called it. It looks on the (WiF) map as you could access Mälaren directly from the Baltic Sea area. This is just not true. You could sail a smaller ship up into Mälaren but certainly not a fleet of ships. To do this you have to pass very narrow canals through the cities of Stockholm or Södertälje passing several bridges and locks in the process. So any WiF relevant large operations should not be possible directly from the Baltic Sea into Mälaren.

I haven't played the game enough to know how a change would impact any operations in the area. So my questions is: Is/was there a playbalance issue to give sea-access to the hexes west and southwest of Stockholm? and if it is changed is it practical?

I do not know where Mälaren is. Yeah, I could always look it up. But ignoring that option, I'll charge ahead.

In WIF FE the hex due west of Stockholm can be invaded from the Baltic because there is an all sea hexside on its SE side. The most recent map that Patrice presented changes that, so the hex due west of Stockholm can not be invaded. From what you say, it appears we have inadvertently made a change/improvement that is more realistic?

Three comments and one recollection:
a) I like the right one of Patrice's addition of Hjälmaren and moving the rail-line. The bigger rail between Stockholm and Oslo goes via Karlstad just on the northern shore of Vänern so it is more accurate.
b) I don't think Mälaren the lake west if stockholm is better on the map to the left.
c) Mälaren is definately lake and not a fjord. It would not be possible to pass central Stockholm and invade further inland.

1) Borger, did you use to go to swedish gaming conventions in the early '90s I seem to recall meeting you and beating you in Brittania one of my favorite games. I also went to Arcon once to play the EuroDipCon (ended up as best Italy)

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
Three comments and one recollection:
a) I like the right one of Patrice's addition of Hjälmaren and moving the rail-line. The bigger rail between Stockholm and Oslo goes via Karlstad just on the northern shore of Vänern so it is more accurate.
b) I don't think Mälaren the lake west if stockholm is better on the map to the left.
c) Mälaren is definately lake and not a fjord. It would not be possible to pass central Stockholm and invade further inland.

1) Borger, did you use to go to swedish gaming conventions in the early '90s I seem to recall meeting you and beating you in Brittania one of my favorite games. I also went to Arcon once to play the EuroDipCon (ended up as best Italy)

Hey, I won best Italy in a DipCon too! I was very discouraged after the tournament because I did so poorly (something like 2 - 4 supply centers at the end), but apparently Italy was pounded even worse at all the other tables. I didn't even know I had won until a couple of months later when I received a green block of wood wrapped in brown paper in the mail. No note, no nothing, just this green block of wood. It wasn't until a couple months later when I saw that I had won best Italy that I was able to figure out that the green block represented a Diplomacy piece for Italy - a very unusual trophy. The whole experience was rather strange.

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
1) Borger, did you use to go to swedish gaming conventions in the early '90s I seem to recall meeting you and beating you in Brittania one of my favorite games. I also went to Arcon once to play the EuroDipCon (ended up as best Italy)

Yes I did. I was several times at Gothcon, a few times at LinCon and one time at the Diplomacy convention in Uppsala in the mid 90's.

I used to play a lot of Diplomacy, but my last game was during the World Championship in Gothenburg 97. I was third in the individual tournament and our team won the team tournament.

I was the organizer at EuroDipCon in Oslo at Arcon so I didn't play much there.

I didn't play much Britannia, but I played it sometimes. So I was not very good with this game. At least not like those experts who played it every week.

My favourite games have always been wargames. Especially strategic wargames like WIF, Columbia Games East Front, West Front and Euro Front, Decision Games AETO. But I also like RPG, racing, strategy and adventure computer games. My favourites being games like NWN, Civ4, Broken Sword, Grand Prix 4 etc.

C) delete one strait hex side from the Stockholm area.

I deleted the strait because it became irrelevant. The all sea hexside has vanished, so the strait has too.
The body of water I drew in the hex west of Stockholm does not hamper movement. It is only cosmetic, but it has to be that long. The Mälaren has to finish on its west end above the Hjälmaren (see the map).

About the Mälaren being a lake and no more a fjord :
If it is done this way, then :
- Straits disappear because there are never straits on lake hexsides.
- Passage from Stockholm to SE of Stockholm become normal (no more strait).
- Passage from Stockholm to SW of Stockholm becomes Lake hexside (no more strait) so movement is forbidden.
- Access to the hex to the hex SW of Stockholm from the Baltic becomes impossible.

If all this is OK, then it's OK to make Mälaren a Lake.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

C) delete one strait hex side from the Stockholm area.

I deleted the strait because it became irrelevant. The all sea hexside has vanished, so the strait has too.
The body of water I drew in the hex west of Stockholm does not hamper movement. It is only cosmetic, but it has to be that long. The Mälaren has to finish on its west end above the Hjälmaren (see the map).

About the Mälaren being a lake and no more a fjord :
If it is done this way, then :
- Straits disappear because there are never straits on lake hexsides.
- Passage from Stockholm to SE of Stockholm become normal (no more strait).
- Passage from Stockholm to SW of Stockholm becomes Lake hexside (no more strait) so movement is forbidden.
- Access to the hex to the hex SW of Stockholm from the Baltic becomes impossible.

If all this is OK, then it's OK to make Mälaren a Lake.

I am ok with all of this. I had missed that the hex SW of Stockholm would also be changed such that it could not be invaded.

The graphic depiction on the map of the lake will have to make it clear it is a lake and not part of the Baltic. Right now it looks like part of the Baltic. Luckily, the graphics for lakes has a thick dark blue outline which makes them appear quite different from the coastal hexes for the sea/oceans. The latter have a thinner, and less noticable outline for where the land meets the water.

I am not so sure about the length of the lake into the hex west of Stockholm. I understand the desire to mimic reality but it might be confusing for game play. Someone's earlier suggestion to limit how far into a hex a lake extends when it is merely cosmetic seems like a good idea to me.

Given the latest comments, here is the Bergen-Stockholm area corrected.

- Oslo-Bergen Railway corrected. From Nils, it does not leave Oslo from the W or NW, but it leaves it like the Oslo-Trondheim railway, from the NE. Google Earth supports this.
- Hex south of Bergen corrected. From Nils, this is an Island hex. Google Earth supports this too. Moreover, this is more logical from a hex drawing point of view.
- Fjord south of Stokholm corrected. This is a lake. I redrew it accordingly, and the color show it clearly that it is not the sea. the Straits have been removed because there are not straits on Lakes. A question here for the Swedish people here knowing the area : Should there be a River hexside SE of Stockholm, linking the lake to the sea ?

Comments ?

We could also make the connection a canal instead of a river. It would have the same effect on game play.

It all seems so clear now. WIF had Mälaren potraid as a fjord as a consequence all Swedes were secretly offended and therefore didn’t play WIF. _ I always wondered why there was so few Swedes compared to number of Norwegians playing WIF. [:D]

I like all the ideas presented. Especially Steve’s idea for a canal between Mälaren (Riddärfjorden) and the Baltic. Outstanding.

Also I have always wondered about that all sea hexside NW of Stockholm. I suppose it is Hedesundafjord, which despite it’s name fjord, quite clearly is a lake that ends 30 km from the sea. (river and another smaller lake in between the sea and the Hedesundafjord)

Then to this other issue of small changes in Norway: I did send some mail to Patrice of-forum, and that the reason for some small bickering back and forth. I am quite happy with what he have done and how he responds. But I find it amusing that I just can’t get him to choose the Oslo solution I suggest. I have several times tried to make him do Oslo like this:



But he completely refuses.
The thing about the railway to Bergen is that it goes most directly northwards, even a little eastwards for quite a while out of Oslo. (Hence Patrices solution, because I showed him this on a map.) But it is completely separate from the Trondheim railorad, all but the first 500 meters from the Østbanen station.

Also I don’t like the Bergen railroad going through hex B. The previous solution was better. (So I changed that back on my picture.)

Enough said.