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I just want to reiterate the original explanation I made a few pages ago as to why this could be considered "legitimate" and not completely "gamey". It's possible that the Axis would make these DOWs to piss off the US Government, knowing full well that the citizens probably wouldn't care . . . "China's dead anyway, so what does it matter?"

Also, part of what has been missed here is the fact that it wasn't only the DOW on China that created this situation. That put 6 chits into the pools. The other 8 chits came from utterly legitimate DOWs on the USSR, France, and the CW . . . all of which were acted on.

Remove those 6 chits, and you get what's in the following image, plus 2 extra Ja chits per turn from here on out. "Gamey" or not, the results are the same, and cannot be fixed by more "gamey" play on the part of the Alliess.

I repeat the damage was done by legitimate DOWs made at an opportune moment. The "gamey" DOW really didn't have as much impact as you seem to think.

A reminder of the DOWs this impulse:

Germany DOW USSR; USE-6 (+1 chit, 170 [1]
Germany DOW China; USE-5 (+6 chits, 503 [3], 592 [3], 915 [6], 18 [1], 25 [1], 553 [3])
Japan DOW USSR; USE-4 (+1 chit, 836 [4])
Japan DOW CW; USE-6 (+3 chits, 904 [5], 222 [2], 508 [3])
Japan DOW France; USE-4 (+3 chits, 635 [3], 128 [1], 7 [1])

Every nation in bold was attacked for real gains this impulse.
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Edit: And I don't expect that the Americans would try a 50% DOW on Italy or Germany in this situation, anyway, since it would potentially remove a very important Tension chit.

did the USSR pull the trigger on those? or are you still thinking about it?

ORIGINAL: brian brian

did the USSR pull the trigger on those? or are you still thinking about it?

No, I haven't actually even finished rebasing aircraft for the Axis. I just went ahead to make those DOWs in order to illustrate my point. Don't worry. The game isn't that out of hand yet. [:D]

Some reasoning to have Germany/Italy DOW China.
Germany might want to get back its Tsingtao enclave and Italy might be eyeing off Honk Kong or Macau. An independent Japanese player may want quid pro quo to allow a base on the east coast of Africa.

Very unlikely, but 1 thought to explain it.

IMO as soon as you start DoWing to screw with US entry and for no other useful in-game reason, you are playing 'metagame' WiF, and no longer playing WiF.

Once that happens it is entirely reasonable for the other side to also play metagame WiF.

If you're going to play metagame WiF and game the US entry mechanics in favour of the Axis you ought rightly to do the same for the Allies.

A German or Italian DoW on China, unless German or Italian forces are in a position to assist the Japanese fight the Chinese, is gamey.

My understanding is this is a test drive of the system, and therefore a great place to play around with outcomes.
I can see thousands of HR in place to keep it in line.
Some of these US entry outcomes should be a bit random, you are using historical responses to a completely ahistorical war. Maybe a point or two variability takes away the confidence in trying to "game" the outcome.

it might also be worth testing the factory move rules with different combinations of german/russian/rumanian controlled hexes in Bessarabia, past and present. I think that rule depends on the use of the word 'current', i.e. during your rail movement phase or is it 'during this turn'?

"We may be destroyed, but, if we are, we shall drag a world with us. A world in flames." - Adolf Hitler
WiF rulebook, page 1.

maybe a dose of Stalinism could fix Haiti. no one else seems to be able to.

ORIGINAL: composer99

IMO as soon as you start DoWing to screw with US entry and for no other useful in-game reason, you are playing 'metagame' WiF, and no longer playing WiF.

Once that happens it is entirely reasonable for the other side to also play metagame WiF.

If you're going to play metagame WiF and game the US entry mechanics in favour of the Axis you ought rightly to do the same for the Allies.

A German or Italian DoW on China, unless German or Italian forces are in a position to assist the Japanese fight the Chinese, is gamey.

If I could go back and remove the DOW, I would. The situation would still be the same. See Post #1401.

If I promise not to DOW China with Italy next impulse, will you guys accept the fact that after the US picked Pass War Appropriations Bill, it was a signal to Japan that the time was now or never? Take a look at that post. It's the Ja Entry Pool which has messed with the US Entry, not the Ge/It Pool.

Even without the DOW on China, I think this was one of the most brilliant moves I've made in the game. It took a good deal of planning to have units ready to enter Siberia, Hanoi, and make a bunch of invasions all at once. I played it well, and I know I sound like I'm chewing on sour grapes here, but why didn't any of you say this was "too gamey" during the 24 hours before I did it when I was talking about all of the options in relation to China? Is this game now no longer valid in your eyes?

I just played a damned smart Axis impulse, a full turn earlier than I expected to be ready for it. But all you can see is that the DOW on China was "gamey".

Okay. I have a solution. At the start of the Allied impulse, the Soviets would DOW Italy anyway. Then I will have all 3 Majors remaining DOW Crete (to give to Italy) and manually select the numbers so that I remove the exact chits that were placed because of the DOW on China. Will that satisfy you?

I won't speak for anyone else, but I found nothing objectionable with the Japanese declarations of war. It knew it was on a tight timeline and needed to get things going.

The German declaration of war on China is what I found to be gaming the mechanics rather than playing the game. Fortunately as you say it did not have a very strong effect.

The USSR DoW on Italy is reasonable since the USSR knows the Italians will be letting Germans through to attack them.

So for me, no more Axis DoW shenanigans will do. [:)]

[Interesting trivia: it appears China declared war on Germany & Italy on December 9, 1941.]

ORIGINAL: composer99

I won't speak for anyone else, but I found nothing objectionable with the Japanese declarations of war. It knew it was on a tight timeline and needed to get things going.

The German declaration of war on China is what I found to be gaming the mechanics rather than playing the game. Fortunately as you say it did not have a very strong effect.

The USSR DoW on Italy is reasonable since the USSR knows the Italians will be letting Germans through to attack them.

So for me, no more Axis DoW shenanigans will do. [:)]

[Interesting trivia: it appears China declared war on Germany & Italy on December 9, 1941.]

Really? Why?
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Edit: Concerning future Axis DOW shenanigans . . . my friend, Cat, the one I mentioned earlier, says that she has never found a Chinese restaurant in Italy (or Mexican, for that matter), and she's been going to Italy for at least a month each year since the day she was born . . . so . . . Italy obviously has no interest in China, so I don't expect there will be a DOW coming from them . . . [;)]

What you should do is bomb the russians in Aserbajan with a german plane based in Italian Libya, and then let USSR DOW Italy and see if there is a USE.
There shouldnt be.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I just want to reiterate the original explanation I made a few pages ago as to why this could be considered "legitimate" and not completely "gamey". It's possible that the Axis would make these DOWs to piss off the US Government, knowing full well that the citizens probably wouldn't care . . . "China's dead anyway, so what does it matter?"

Also, part of what has been missed here is the fact that it wasn't only the DOW on China that created this situation. That put 6 chits into the pools. The other 8 chits came from utterly legitimate DOWs on the USSR, France, and the CW . . . all of which were acted on.

Remove those 6 chits, and you get what's in the following image, plus 2 extra Ja chits per turn from here on out. "Gamey" or not, the results are the same, and cannot be fixed by more "gamey" play on the part of the Alliess.

I repeat the damage was done by legitimate DOWs made at an opportune moment. The "gamey" DOW really didn't have as much impact as you seem to think.

A reminder of the DOWs this impulse:

Germany DOW USSR; USE-6 (+1 chit, 170 [1]
Germany DOW China; USE-5 (+6 chits, 503 [3], 592 [3], 915 [6], 18 [1], 25 [1], 553 [3])
Japan DOW USSR; USE-4 (+1 chit, 836 [4])
Japan DOW CW; USE-6 (+3 chits, 904 [5], 222 [2], 508 [3])
Japan DOW France; USE-4 (+3 chits, 635 [3], 128 [1], 7 [1])

Every nation in bold was attacked for real gains this impulse.
-----
Edit: And I don't expect that the Americans would try a 50% DOW on Italy or Germany in this situation, anyway, since it would potentially remove a very important Tension chit.

I said to respond to the gameyness, not make things worse. There's a right way and a wrong way and by doing it the wrong way (to the extreme) you are creating a false example of the proper response.

Let's start with the Axis. Should Japan have DoW'd France even? If France has no forces in the Pacific and has no territory to be attacked this impulse - why DoW? The benefits of later surprise against some French hex may as well be maintained. OTOH if France has any ships in the Pacific, Japan MUST DoW to prevent some awful thing happening to their convoys on a French Surprise impulse. But of course if the goal is to drive up the US entry level to take advantage of the structure of the It's War chart, then yes, it's a good move too, just like the DoWs on China by the EuroAxis. (Not saying this was your actual intent either, I know this is a learning game for you.)

For the DoWs in the Americas, you never want to do this with the Allies. Here's why (from RAW 13.8 Victory Check): "Subtract 1 from an Allied major power’s total for each minor country on the American map that it declared war on." This means in a two-handed game, every DoW on a country on the Americas map means the Axis needs one less victory city to win. And of course you never want to DoW them with the Axis either as that just makes a gift of their resources and factories (if any) to the USA.

So what's left? Yemen, Liberia, Tibet, Bhutan and Nepal and possibly Crete (see my post #1395). Not Afganistan since they have guys that can walk out and do dirt to India and the USSR. And not Bhutan and Nepal or Tibet if they have any units that could do anything to India, depending on what India has for garrison troops. Nothing else on the European map as these would help the axis.

The ones that present no risk should be DoW'd by just the CW, because depending on which chits are lost you can then do it again the next impulse with the French, but more selectively - even only one per impulse, because now the axis can't DoW them (which is why the axis probably should not align them when the CW DOWs them and thus they surrender). If they remain available for a French DoW, then you can "fine tune" the attempt to lower the entry level.

Even if it would make no difference to the entry level as you claim:
a) you have to do it because in a FTF game the axis doesn't know that and you keep them guessing
b) then it doesn't matter if you do do it, either
and c) now that the cats out of the bag, you have to do it before your evil twin does it with the axis.[;)]

France held French Indochina, so the Japanese DOW on France was fully justified in all respects. That will hold true any time the Axis does not declare Vichy France, and sometimes even if they do.

I say take the 50% shot of getting the USA into the war.
if you loss tension pump it up next turn!
If you succeed DOW Japan ASAP.
Get into the war before both Russia and China are gone!!!!!!!!!
Man up and throw those bones.
[:D]

I would begin to dow at 30% or 40% chance once or twice a turn. And go for moving the maximum number of chits to the tension pool. I would not do any extra war declarations for the Allies. Lets keep all those US entry chits and put them to use.

EDIT: You can work a long time to get to a 80% chance to DOW and still fail. Lets put some presure on the Axis nerves and b egin with DOWs. Before US had to few markers to risk DOW on low odds. Thanks to the Axis US no longer has this trouble.

DOW away and lets roll those dies. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I would begin to dow at 30% or 40% chance once or twice a turn. And go for moving the maximum number of chits to the tension pool. I would not do any extra war declarations for the Allies. Lets keep all those US entry chits and put them to use.

EDIT: You can work a long time to get to a 80% chance to DOW and still fail. Lets put some presure on the Axis nerves and b egin with DOWs. Before US had to few markers to risk DOW on low odds. Thanks to the Axis US no longer has this trouble.

DOW away and lets roll those dies. [:D]

I suppose this isn't too unreasonable, but the Tension Pools have a total of only 7 chits at the moment, I think. One failed DOW could easily drop the percentages down too far, and there are a lot of low chits in the Entry Pools.

Here are the current DOW chances and US Entry Pools:

The following post is hypothetical, and not part of the game being played.
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If you fail to DOW Japan, let's say, at 40% and the highest chit from the Ja Entry Pool and Tension Pools are removed, here's what you end up with:

It seems to me the question now is whether or not the US should pick Option 19 to get Resources to the USSR, or if it should pick Options like #36, #43, #48, and #50 in order to boost Tension?