Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Well not exactly. I'm saying the attacker makes those decisions right after the attack is announced and then the defender does his and then you are back in the sequence of play. This would happen before:
1. ... (the defender then announces whether any notional units are to be ignored);
2. add defensive shore bombardment (option 38);
3. add offensive shore bombardment;
4. announce defensive HQ support (option 13);
5. announce offensive HQ support;
6. fly and resolve ground support missions;
7. resolve HQ support;
8. the combats are then resolved one by one (attacker choosing the order of combat resolution).

We may be saying the same thing in ways the other is unsure mean the same thing...

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

We match up except in two places (where RAW is unclear).

1. I have the die rolling for HQ support (if a die needs to be rolled) within the combat resolution for each hex - after snow units are committed but before the Assault/Blitz decision. The way you have it structured, the players would know how well they rolled the dice for HQ support for all combats before deciding about the use of snow bonuses. I prefer keeping them in the dark about die rolls up to the point that they choose Assault/Blitz.

2. I have the Enginner decision made during land combat declaration instead of within each combat resolution. The way you have it structured, the players would know how well earlier combats turned out before deciding about using the engineer in subsequent combats.
==
If anything, as a player, I would like to have all the decisions (except assault/blitz) made for all combats prior to selecting which combat to first resolve. Then I would like the program to roll for HQ support for each combat as it is processed and that information provided to the player deciding assault/blitz.

But that is just me being a theoretician. I am perfectly content with the sequence currently coded and I do not see a lot of difference one way or the other. Seriously, the players are going to use their engineers and their snow units almost 100% of the time. The question is mostly a formality.

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since resolving HQ support is in RAW as being ahead of resolving the combats themselves, why would the resolution be deferred? As Orm points out, it's good to know the final (pre-blitz) odds before you begin resolving attacks (since blitz mods are not known until a blitz combat is called).

Also, if playing with the add/subtract 1/2 of HQ reorg value optional, there is no roll to resolve HQ support, it just gets thrown in. Since both forms of HQ support exist, why not 'unversalize' the resolution of HQ support by leaving it in its alloted place per RAW?

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since resolving HQ support is in RAW as being ahead of resolving the combats themselves, why would the resolution be deferred? As Orm points out, it's good to know the final (pre-blitz) odds before you begin resolving attacks (since blitz mods are not known until a blitz combat is called).

Also, if playing with the add/subtract 1/2 of HQ reorg value optional, there is no roll to resolve HQ support, it just gets thrown in. Since both forms of HQ support exist, why not 'unversalize' the resolution of HQ support by leaving it in its alloted place per RAW?

ORIGINAL: composer99

The fractional odds resolution is listed in 11.16.5 as taking place immediately before rolling dice to resolve the combat (and after the table is picked) - and in table-top WiF most players "tack on" an extra die when rolling to resolve the combat. The extra die resolves the fractional adjustment.

I don't think that the order matters as much in this case, though others may disagree. Leaving fractional odds resolution where you have put it seems fine by me.

As far as the snow unit resolution goes, as the weather effect on combat is calculated after the table is picked (again, as described in 11.16.5), I assume the winterized unit modifier is resolved at that time as well - technically.

However, as we all know, players usually calculate the odds of potential combats in advance of calling them, so committing to use or not use winterized units earlier in the combat resolution process seems reasonable to me.

So it seems reasonable to have the winterized unit resolution take place earlier in the combat sequence; perhaps the engineer and winterized unit commitments can be made when declaring attacks (as the attacker will have a clear idea of whether he wants to commit them or not by then anyway).

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I prefer to stick to RAW unless there is a justifiable programming reason or Harry makes a change.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I prefer to stick to RAW unless there is a justifiable programming reason or Harry makes a change.

Yes. But RAW is somewhat vague about this.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I prefer to stick to RAW unless there is a justifiable programming reason or Harry makes a change.

Yes. But RAW is somewhat vague about this.

IMO the only place where RAW is vague is when to commit the Engineer and Snow abilities. It is clear about the HQ support resolution and it is clear about selecting blitz/assault before fractional resolution. AFAICS, Orm's suggestion is identical to mine.

The sequence I gave in post #1461 is a direct quote from RAW.

ORIGINAL: doctormm

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets



Yes. But RAW is somewhat vague about this.

IMO the only place where RAW is vague is when to commit the Engineer and Snow abilities. It is clear about the HQ support resolution and it is clear about selecting blitz/assault before fractional resolution. AFAICS, Orm's suggestion is identical to mine.

The sequence I gave in post #1461 is a direct quote from RAW.

Couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet -
There needs to be an opportunity for emergency HQ supply immediately before rolling the dice.
When do you announce which units are being doubled by O chits?

I also find it somewhat irksome that the snow bonus is optional -
Take off your boots so you won't suffer as many casualties!
Similarly the ongoing debate about using the blitz mods. I haven't had much time to really dig into those debates though - that may change now that I've been laid off.

It's late. I'll give a more thorough consideration tomorrow.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: doctormm




Couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet -
There needs to be an opportunity for emergency HQ supply immediately before rolling the dice.
When do you announce which units are being doubled by O chits?

I also find it somewhat irksome that the snow bonus is optional -
Take off your boots so you won't suffer as many casualties!
Similarly the ongoing debate about using the blitz mods. I haven't had much time to really dig into those debates though - that may change now that I've been laid off.

It's late. I'll give a more thorough consideration tomorrow.

Both Offensive chit doubling and Emergency HQ supply are available from the unit pop up menu - that is, whenever the players want to invoke it.

The former would be by the phasing player only and should be done during land combat declaration.

During the land combat phase, the latter is primarily used by the non-phasing player. There is a subphase specifically for that in the MWIF sequence of play (since most of the time the non-phasing player is not the player moving units).
==
As for the use of snow units/bonus being optional, it has to do with which units are sent into battle first/last. To use a historical reference, if you hold the Old Guard out of every battle, it never takes losses.

ORIGINAL: doctormm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: doctormm




Couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet -
There needs to be an opportunity for emergency HQ supply immediately before rolling the dice.
When do you announce which units are being doubled by O chits?

I also find it somewhat irksome that the snow bonus is optional -
Take off your boots so you won't suffer as many casualties!
Similarly the ongoing debate about using the blitz mods. I haven't had much time to really dig into those debates though - that may change now that I've been laid off.

It's late. I'll give a more thorough consideration tomorrow.

Both Offensive chit doubling and Emergency HQ supply are available from the unit pop up menu - that is, whenever the players want to invoke it.

The former would be by the phasing player only and should be done during land combat declaration.

During the land combat phase, the latter is primarily used by the non-phasing player. There is a subphase specifically for that in the MWIF sequence of play (since most of the time the non-phasing player is not the player moving units).
==
As for the use of snow units/bonus being optional, it has to do with which units are sent into battle first/last. To use a historical reference, if you hold the Old Guard out of every battle, it never takes losses.

The Old Guard was rarely committed to combat. During the Russian campaign they were essentially little more than a drag on Napoleon's logistics and quite famously and probably fatal to his campaign, never were committed at Borodino.

Fractional odds
Several of your screen shots show a sequence error in them - the fractional odds roll is, by RAW, atomic with the combat resolution roll.

Ochit doubling
What is the MWiF definition of "final odds calculation"? That is, by RAW, when the attacker gets to do his doubling for Ochits - not at the time of declaration of combats.

I would have the end of the combat resolution sequence be:

Defender has last chance to do Emergency HQ supply
Attacker decides if any units will be doubled by Ochit
Alea iacta est (the die is cast).
Apply the results

ENG Modifier
The rules are quite clear that there is no choice involved. They provide a benefit. Period.
That being said, if there is a requirement to add that option, it absolutely should be part of the combat declaration (step 1 of the sequence in 11.16, done as the player allocates units).

Winterized/blitz modifiers
First of all, a huge qualifier - there is nothing in the rules that indicate that snow and blitz mods are optional.
Have I made my opinion on this clear enough?

The DEFENDER should choose first, not the attacker. If you look at the sequence in 11.16, it is always defender first.

Are we looking for simplicity of use/fewer steps, or what would be most true to RAW?
If the latter, then the decisions for all of these should be made during step 1 of the sequence in 11.16. That's where the defender chooses whether to use the notional, so it seems sensible to do this there.

That gives you:
1. declare all attacks, (the defender then announces whether any notional units are to be ignored);
attacker commits his units, including committing ENG to their role
defender declares whether he will be applying any optional modifiers, and whether he is declining the notional
attacker decides whether he will be applying any optional modifiers
This is done globally before moving on to step 2 (DSB).

Otherwise, if you're going to include the snow/blitz choice in step 8, then it still should be defender first. The decision on ENG should still remain as part of the declaration in step 1.

Overcommitment of shore bombardment and ground support
Now, one thing that's been debated and I'm not sure if it's been settled - what happens to over-commitment of shore bombardment and ground support, when emergency support and doubling are in play?
Do you "remember" that you've got extra points of ground support available should you choose to double the unit?

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Thanks. I am going to make another pass at explaining how MWIF will handle all this based on the various feedback I have been getting.
==
For now, notice that the use of the snow unit bonus is a decision that the player gets to make (RAC 8.2.7: "you may lessen the odds ... If you use this power ...").

EDIT: I think you are right about the engineer bonus not being a voluntary decision. If an engineer is in a combat but doesn't provide any particular bonus, then it does not have to take the first loss. However, if an engineer is present in an attack and it can provide a bonus, then it does priovide the bonus, and it will have to take the first loss. The players get to choose whether the engineer attacks or not - and that's all.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here goes, ....
===========
MWIF Sequence of Play for resolving land combat
(as of November 20, 2008)

Code: Select all

 Land Movement - RAC 11.11.
 Air Transport -  RAC 11.12.
 Unload Land Units - RAC 11.13.
 Invasion - RAC 11.14.
 Paradrop - RAC 11.15.
 Land Combat Declaration - RAC 11.16.1.
 	Attackers doubled (within range of offensive HQ) - RAC 16.3.
 Ignore Notional - RAC 11.14.
 Emergency HQ Supply (prompt/reminder for defender) - RAC 2.4.3.
 Shore Bombardment D - RAC 11.16.2.
 Shore Bombardment A - RAC 11.16.2.
 HQ Support D (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
 HQ Support A (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
 Ground Support - RAC 11.16.4.
 	Roll for HQ Support - RAC 11.16.3.
 Land Combat Resolution (one combat at a time) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
 	Land Combat Selection - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Def Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
 	Att Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
 	Choose Combat Type - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
 	Land Combat Resolution (roll dice, including fractional odds) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
 	Convert Shattered - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Assign Losses - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Hex Control (overruns from invasions and paradrops) - RAC 11.11.6.
 	Retreats - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Advance After Combat - RAC 11.16.5.
 
 

============
Comments:
1. If the player wants to double his attacking units for a land combat (permitted if the unit is within range of an HQ benefitting from an Offensive chit), he uses the unit popup menu during the land combat declaration phase. The purpose behind this is so the total attack strength is known for calculating supplemental shore bombardment and ground strike factors.

2. Engineer bonuses are automatically applied. Engineers only take the first loss is their bonus capabilities have been used in the attack. The attacker’s decision is solely whether an engineer unit attacks or not.

3. The use of snow bonuses is voluntary. The defender decides first, in keeping with the pattern of defenders deciding first (e.g., for shore bombardment and HQ support).

4. The effect of fractional odds immediately precedes the combat die roll itself. This is the only factor affecting the CRT column (die roll modifier) that will still be uncertain when the decision of Assault/Blitz is made.

5. Any overruns caused by successful invasions and/or paradrops are resolved prior to land units being retreated. That is, if there are naval and air units in the attacked hex and all the land units have been eliminated (destroyed/shattered/must retreat) then the invading infantry and paratroops land in the hex, control of the hex changes, and the naval and air units must rebase, PRIOR to retreating (plotting the retreat path of) the land units. Note that this only applies if the invading/paradropping unit survives. Otherwise, the overrun will not take place until the advance after combat subphase (assuming a land unit advances into the attacked hex).

ORIGINAL: doctormm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Thanks. I am going to make another pass at explaining how MWIF will handle all this based on the various feedback I have been getting.
==
For now, notice that the use of the snow unit bonus is a decision that the player gets to make (RAC 8.2.7: "you may lessen the odds ... If you use this power ...").

EDIT: I think you are right about the engineer bonus not being a voluntary decision. If an engineer is in a combat but doesn't provide any particular bonus, then it does not have to take the first loss. However, if an engineer is present in an attack and it can provide a bonus, then it does priovide the bonus, and it will have to take the first loss. The players get to choose whether the engineer attacks or not - and that's all.

On what is the RAC change to RAW based? The 2d10 that I have has none of that text.

Also, if you allow players to decline the winter bonus, you'll need to clarify 3(c) of the 2d10 notes. That is, if I have two units attacking and one is Winterized, but I refuse the winterized bonus, am I still exempt from the bad weather extra loss?

ORIGINAL: doctormm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here goes, ....
===========
MWIF Sequence of Play for resolving land combat
(as of November 20, 2008)

Code: Select all

 Land Movement - RAC 11.11.
 Air Transport -  RAC 11.12.
 Unload Land Units - RAC 11.13.
 Invasion - RAC 11.14.
 Paradrop - RAC 11.15.
 Land Combat Declaration - RAC 11.16.1.
 	Attackers doubled (within range of offensive HQ) - RAC 16.3.
 Ignore Notional - RAC 11.14.
 Emergency HQ Supply (prompt/reminder for defender) - RAC 2.4.3.
 Shore Bombardment D - RAC 11.16.2.
 Shore Bombardment A - RAC 11.16.2.
 HQ Support D (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
 HQ Support A (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
 Ground Support - RAC 11.16.4.
 	Roll for HQ Support - RAC 11.16.3.
 Land Combat Resolution (one combat at a time) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
 	Land Combat Selection - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Def Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
 	Att Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
 	Choose Combat Type - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
 	Land Combat Resolution (roll dice, including fractional odds) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
 	Convert Shattered - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Assign Losses - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Hex Control (overruns from invasions and paradrops) - RAC 11.11.6.
 	Retreats - RAC 11.16.5.
 	Advance After Combat - RAC 11.16.5.
 
 

============
Comments:
1. If the player wants to double his attacking units for a land combat (permitted if the unit is within range of an HQ benefitting from an Offensive chit), he uses the unit popup menu during the land combat declaration phase. The purpose behind this is so the total attack strength is known for calculating supplemental shore bombardment and ground strike factors.

2. Engineer bonuses are automatically applied. Engineers only take the first loss is their bonus capabilities have been used in the attack. The attacker’s decision is solely whether an engineer unit attacks or not.

3. The use of snow bonuses is voluntary. The defender decides first, in keeping with the pattern of defenders deciding first (e.g., for shore bombardment and HQ support).

4. The effect of fractional odds immediately precedes the combat die roll itself. This is the only factor affecting the CRT column (die roll modifier) that will still be uncertain when the decision of Assault/Blitz is made.

5. Any overruns caused by successful invasions and/or paradrops are resolved prior to land units being retreated. That is, if there are naval and air units in the attacked hex and all the land units have been eliminated (destroyed/shattered/must retreat) then the invading infantry and paratroops land in the hex, control of the hex changes, and the naval and air units must rebase, PRIOR to retreating (plotting the retreat path of) the land units. Note that this only applies if the invading/paradropping unit survives. Otherwise, the overrun will not take place until the advance after combat subphase (assuming a land unit advances into the attacked hex).

OK, I see that you've gone with "keep it simple" on the OChit doubling. You've also left the emergency HQ quite early. Presumably that's to make things easier as well. But it does add a wrinkle if the HQ providing the emergency supply is killed or flipped prior to resolving the combat of the unit(s) receiving the emergency supply. I still think you should allow emergency supply right before the actual die roll.