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ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Got to say, this is a great book [:)]

Just looked it up on the on-line store that I use but they charge 35£ for it. [:(]

warspite1

Is that hardback? Amazon here in the UK have it for:

Hardback - £42.26
Paperback - £24.32
Used - from £13.66

I've bought quite a few used books. To be fair, they have always turned up as described condition wise.

That was for trade paperback which was the only version listed at the moment.

Maybe I'll check another site later on, or a library.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

A Warrior Dynasty has been put on hold. To Crown The Waves arrived and I have to get this read first. It's like a WWI version of On Seas Contested which gave a good overview of the key navies of WWII, organisation, history, infrastructure etc.

Did you ever get back to A Warrior Dynasty?

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

A Warrior Dynasty has been put on hold. To Crown The Waves arrived and I have to get this read first. It's like a WWI version of On Seas Contested which gave a good overview of the key navies of WWII, organisation, history, infrastructure etc.

Did you ever get back to A Warrior Dynasty?

warspite1

No - I got side-tracked and have not yet returned.....

Re reading Four years on the Western Front by A Rifleman. It's def one of the best WW1 memoirs written, easy up there with War the Infantry Knew.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

A Warrior Dynasty has been put on hold. To Crown The Waves arrived and I have to get this read first. It's like a WWI version of On Seas Contested which gave a good overview of the key navies of WWII, organisation, history, infrastructure etc.

Did you ever get back to A Warrior Dynasty?

warspite1

No - I got side-tracked and have not yet returned.....

Yes, a War Gamers strength flows from History Books. But beware of the dark side. WWII, U-Boats, Carriers - the dark side of history Books, are they. Easily they read, quick to pull you in. If once you start down the dark path, forever you will read books about WWII. Consume you, it will, as it has done with so many who read about WWII.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm



Did you ever get back to A Warrior Dynasty?

warspite1

No - I got side-tracked and have not yet returned.....

Yes, a War Gamers strength flows from History Books. But beware of the dark side. WWII, U-Boats, Carriers - the dark side of history Books, are they. Easily they read, quick to pull you in. If once you start down the dark path, forever you will read books about WWII. Consume you, it will, as it has done with so many who read about WWII.

warspite1

So why do I suck at war games? [:(][&:]

[:)]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So why do I suck at war games? [:(][&:]

[:)]

Same reasons I do. Primarily because of the Australian Beauties Thread.

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So why do I suck at war games? [:(][&:]

[:)]

Same reasons I do. Primarily because of the Australian Beauties Thread.

Whitney

Ah Aurelian, erudite as ever [&o]. I think you have hit the preverbial well and truly on the cranium. I suspect that if the likes of you and warspite1 spent less time admiring the beauty of the female form, and more time poring over the strategic or tactical situation (as pertaining to the specific game in hand) I suspect that war gaming success would be easier to find for both of you.

But let's face it - I'm gorgeous so your actions are quite understandable.

Luv ya

Whitney x

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So why do I suck at war games? [:(][&:]

[:)]

Same reasons I do. Primarily because of the Australian Beauties Thread.

Whitney

Ah Aurelian, erudite as ever [&o]. I think you have hit the preverbial well and truly on the cranium. I suspect that if the likes of you and warspite1 spent less time admiring the beauty of the female form, and more time poring over the strategic or tactical situation (as pertaining to the specific game in hand) I suspect that war gaming success would be easier to find for both of you.

But let's face it - I'm gorgeous so your actions are quite understandable.

Luv ya

Whitney x

Ahhh, but if Her Imperial Highness catches me looking at you, I'll get the old frying pan upside the head attack. It's worse than a Russian artillery barrage....

She nearly dethroned me after Ms Christina.

The Empress sounds a formidable woman indeed Aurelian. The ol' frying pan in the kisser routine is just so disagreeable.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Empress sounds a formidable woman indeed Aurelian. The ol' frying pan in the kisser routine is just so disagreeable.

Especially for the pan

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

No - I got side-tracked and have not yet returned.....

Yes, a War Gamers strength flows from History Books. But beware of the dark side. WWII, U-Boats, Carriers - the dark side of history Books, are they. Easily they read, quick to pull you in. If once you start down the dark path, forever you will read books about WWII. Consume you, it will, as it has done with so many who read about WWII.

warspite1

So why do I suck at war games? [:(][&:]

[:)]

You don't. You are just to humble to say that you are an awesome gamer. [:)]

I'm on third novel of Paladin of Shadows series: Choosers of the Slain. Here I quote to you part of the second novel: Kildar

"And you made your money from a communications company nobody has ever heard of," Colonel Kortotich said, smiling thinly.
"No," Mike said, working his jaw, "I made my money from killing people and breaking things. Specifically terrorists and their operations. Your point?"

Just started on hell of a monster audio book:

The American Experiment, James MacGregor Burns 87 hours long.

Reading:

Alaska, James Michener

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Please let me know what you think of Cerberus.

With hindsight its such a shame the British didn't just let them go and not try and intercept. It would have saved a load of lives and after all, as Napoleon once said:

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" [:D]

So far it is a thriller, with a very sad part. It is very hard to put the book down.

Enjoying Blair's Hitler's U-boat War so much I think I am going to be at sea for some considerable time to come. I have Volume II to follow, and will then move on to Arctic Convoys 1941-45 and possibly The Real Cruel Sea again.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

...and have just started Struggle for the Middle Sea by Vincent P. O'Hara.

warspite1

I enjoyed this book - it provides a look at the main naval engagements in the Mediterranean Sea in WWII, and the OOB for each, in a concise one-volume work.

However, I fundamentally disagree with O'Hara's view on the performance of the Regia Marina in WWII. One his arguments to support his view is that, unlike the German or Japanese navies, the RM ended the war largely intact..... a) not sure why that is a good measure for a country that lost the war. b) the RM fought the Royal Navy's reputation and not the RN as it existed, stretched to the limits, in WWII. Had they been more aggressive, they could, and should, have hurt the RN more.

Finished that one, good book. Regarding your points, I don't think that losing the war invalidates saying that a fleet stayed largely intact - which is true for the Regia Marina. For example, at the armistice, all its battleships bar the one sunk at Tarento were still in service. I would also say that the RM's mission was not to fight a "reputation" of an enemy fleet, in this case the RN, but to carry out a defined mission - which was to keep open the sea lanes between Italy and it's African colonies/conquests. The Regia Marina was hampered by lack of fuel - the war against Russia has cut it off from its main fuel source and henceforth Italy was completely dependant on Germany for fuel. The coordination between Italian navy and Air Force was abysmal, the RM had no radar, it's ships were of short range. Despite all this, the RM actually did carry out its assigned mission, no matter how hysterically that over-rated "desert-fox" Rommel complained to his superiors.

Remember, O'Hara says the RM "stayed largely intact", he does not say the RM was "victorious". And maybe the Royal Navy should have done better

Anyway, this book makes me want to read more, especially about all the numerous French Fleets (Free and Vichy, as well as actions after Vichy's downfall) and about the Italian fleets actions as Allied co-belligerent.

Now reading Edward Young's One of our Submarines - Young was the first R.N.V.R. officer who got his own submarine command, HM submarine "Storm". It's his autobiography of his wartime service. Information about the RN's submarine operations is rare as far as I can tell. I'd wish it receives more coverage in books.

And I think I should dig deeper into the Royal Navy stuff. Any recommendations?

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

...and have just started Struggle for the Middle Sea by Vincent P. O'Hara.

warspite1

I enjoyed this book - it provides a look at the main naval engagements in the Mediterranean Sea in WWII, and the OOB for each, in a concise one-volume work.

However, I fundamentally disagree with O'Hara's view on the performance of the Regia Marina in WWII. One his arguments to support his view is that, unlike the German or Japanese navies, the RM ended the war largely intact..... a) not sure why that is a good measure for a country that lost the war. b) the RM fought the Royal Navy's reputation and not the RN as it existed, stretched to the limits, in WWII. Had they been more aggressive, they could, and should, have hurt the RN more.

Finished that one, good book. Regarding your points, I don't think that losing the war invalidates saying that a fleet stayed largely intact - which is true for the Regia Marina. For example, at the armistice, all its battleships bar the one sunk at Tarento were still in service. I would also say that the RM's mission was not to fight a "reputation" of an enemy fleet, in this case the RN, but to carry out a defined mission - which was to keep open the sea lanes between Italy and it's African colonies/conquests. The Regia Marina was hampered by lack of fuel - the war against Russia has cut it off from its main fuel source and henceforth Italy was completely dependant on Germany for fuel. The coordination between Italian navy and Air Force was abysmal, the RM had no radar, it's ships were of short range. Despite all this, the RM actually did carry out its assigned mission, no matter how hysterically that over-rated "desert-fox" Rommel complained to his superiors.

Remember, O'Hara says the RM "stayed largely intact", he does not say the RM was "victorious". And maybe the Royal Navy should have done better

Anyway, this book makes me want to read more, especially about all the numerous French Fleets (Free and Vichy, as well as actions after Vichy's downfall) and about the Italian fleets actions as Allied co-belligerent.

Now reading Edward Young's One of our Submarines - Young was the first R.N.V.R. officer who got his own submarine command, HM submarine "Storm". It's his autobiography of his wartime service. Information about the RN's submarine operations is rare as far as I can tell. I'd wish it receives more coverage in books.

And I think I should dig deeper into the Royal Navy stuff. Any recommendations?

warspite1

I think you have misunderstood my point. I did not say O'Hara was wrong to say the RM was largely intact at the end of the war. But O'Hara treats that position as a good thing; something the Kriegsmarine or IJN could not say. So what? Why is that good? The point I made is that I do not think that is a plus for the RM - quite the reverse. The RN was ridiculously stretched at times in the Mediterranean - the RM did not take advantage because Supermarina forbade Campioni and his successor from being aggressive. I did not say O'Hara thought the RM "victorious", but that he thought they did what they were asked to do. The overriding point is - they were not asked to do, nor showed any inclination in doing, what could win them Mare Nostrum.

The oil position is well known, but Mussolini expected a short war and the oil situation did not stop the fleet charging all over the place (to no good effect because they would not engage) in that first year of the war.

Ditto radar and the air/sea co-operation. The point is Cunningham, Somerville and the RN had plenty of disadvantages - no 8-inchers (they had a couple, but briefly) to counter the Italian Pola and Trento classes, the aircraft carriers were old, slow and what aircraft they had were few and were antiques from a bygone age, the battleships were old and slow too (HMS Warspite aside) - Cunningham's frustration at Calabria can only be imagined as Malaya and Royal Sovereign could not keep up. Somerville had the same problem with Ramillies at Spartivento. Interesting you say the RN should have done better - despite the drawbacks above. It's difficult fighting a fleet engagement when your enemy does not want to fight and 2/3rds of your battleship force and your carrier cannot keep up with the retreating enemy.

As I say, imo the RM had too much respect for RN's reputation. Of course the RM had issues, but they had generally newer, faster ships and generally with longer range. They had a battlefield advantage, internal lines of communication (whereas the RN was split either end of the Med).

It's not an argument that can be decisively won. If Supermarina had followed my advice and been slaughtered at Calabria they would have been right. If they had used their speed and range advantage and smacked Warspite and the 6-inch cruisers around, I would have been right. We will never know.

Further recommendations - a few, what theatre most interests you?

Let's see, I got Roskill's War at Sea, Hobbs' British Pacific Fleet, and a couple Ospreys books which I primarily buy for the nice colour plates. Anything about submarine operations would be fine. Think I should just check at the usual places to see what is available. If there would be a book available about the RN of WWII, similar to Silverstone's one about the US Navy, I'd be fine. I know Friedman is the expert for the USN - is there a author around which would be his equivalent for the RN?

One author is definitely on my list, Malcolm George Wright, who did a couple books about RN Camouflage Patterns of WW II.

Seaforth Publishing produce some real quality WWII reference books, amongst them:

- British Aircraft Carriers (Hobbs)
- British Battleships 1919-45 (Burt)
- British Cruisers (Friedman)
- British Destroyers From Earliest Days (Friedman)
- British Destroyers and Frigates (Friedman)

Four other Seaforth books I would highly recommend are:

- French Battleships 1922-1956 (Jordan and Dumas)
- French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin)*
- The Littorio Class (Bagnasco and De Toro)
- Mussolini's Navy (Brescia)

* Just seen that French Destroyers 1922-1956 is out this June. That is a must. Pre-ordered already!

Back to the RN I would recommend:

- Carrier Glorious (Winton)
- The Forgotten Fleet (Winton)
- Ark Royal (Rossiter)
- The Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse (Middlebrook & Mahoney)

Not specifically RN, but with a lot of focus on the RN for obvious reasons and highly recommended (also Seaforth):

- The Gathering Storm (Haarr)
- The Battle for Norway (Haarr)
- The German Invasion of Norway (Haarr)

** Also seen that September sees the release of a book about British and Allied submarine operations in 1939 and 1940:

- No Room For Mistakes (Haarr)

Wow!!