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As you can see in one of the excerpts above, only an air or land unit can claim a hex, and that always that that hex is not also into an enemy ZOC. So:

- A ship cannot hold the control
- A land or air unit in the hex can.
- A land unit can if it is in it's ZOC as soon as there is no enemy ZOC

Yes.

I am not sure if you disagree with me about Bordeaux, or merely comment on my parenthesis about the ships?

I would argue that you are correct, but I am not sure if the rules actually spell that out. Only land units can change control of a hex normally. During conquest aircraft are added, But Vichy has special rules and there it just states that "all hexes controlled by French units". Nowhere that I can see has specified what units are counted, or not counted, for this purpose. I would argue that the Vichy rule follows the same standard as conquest, but ships are units... Other may argue that only land units may change control....

Just to be clear. ZOC is only enough if there is no enemy ZOC in that hes, or enemy unit (land or aircraft).

Orm wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2025 8:47 am Yes.

I am not sure if you disagree with me about Bordeaux, or merely comment on my parenthesis about the ships?

I would argue that you are correct, but I am not sure if the rules actually spell that out. Only land units can change control of a hex normally. During conquest aircraft are added, But Vichy has special rules and there it just states that "all hexes controlled by French units". Nowhere that I can see has specified what units are counted, or not counted, for this purpose. I would argue that the Vichy rule follows the same standard as conquest, but ships are units... Other may argue that only land units may change control....

I agree. Since the rule specifically state "units", a French ship in Bordeaux is enough to make the hex Axis controlled when Vichy is declared. Bayonne should become CW controlled, since it is in a ZOC of a CW unit.

Orm wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2025 8:16 am Bayonne should indeed be controlled by CW due to ZOC. But Bordeaux should perhaps be controlled by Germany. This because any French Land or aircraft unit in Bordeaux turns the hex to Germany (I suspect that ships is not enough to retain control but will not research it if there is no need). Can not see in the picture if any such unit are there. Otherwise the hex should indeed turn to CW,

I agree to this

Bayonne is always CW, and as for Bordeaux. If there are FR land units the hex it may go to GE (i think so), but ships never get control of hexes, and if there are not land units it would be CW too.

Centuur wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2025 11:30 am

Orm wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2025 8:47 am Yes.

I am not sure if you disagree with me about Bordeaux, or merely comment on my parenthesis about the ships?

I would argue that you are correct, but I am not sure if the rules actually spell that out. Only land units can change control of a hex normally. During conquest aircraft are added, But Vichy has special rules and there it just states that "all hexes controlled by French units". Nowhere that I can see has specified what units are counted, or not counted, for this purpose. I would argue that the Vichy rule follows the same standard as conquest, but ships are units... Other may argue that only land units may change control....

I agree. Since the rule specifically state "units", a French ship in Bordeaux is enough to make the hex Axis controlled when Vichy is declared. Bayonne should become CW controlled, since it is in a ZOC of a CW unit.

I do not agree.

VICHY FRANCE
(...)
CREATION
(...)
Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

The hex was (i understand a CW controlled hex). How can there be there French BPs there remains a mistery. Ships or BPs dont change control to FR, so it never becomes GE.

I guess it would be most interesting to know who controlled Bordeaux before Vichy.

The mystery to me from the picture is how the Italian units got to where they are?

Not knowing what is in Bordeaux besides the build points, makes me reluctant to express an opinion, but from what I can see, if there is no CW unit in Bordeaux, it should be controlled by the power that installed Vichy. There are both CW and Italian ZoC on it.

paulderynck wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2025 10:10 pm The mystery to me from the picture is how the Italian units got to where they are?

Not knowing what is in Bordeaux besides the build points, makes me reluctant to express an opinion, but from what I can see, if there is no CW unit in Bordeaux, it should be controlled by the power that installed Vichy. There are both CW and Italian ZoC on it.

Why should it be controlled by the power that installed Vichy?

I assume the hex was CW. If so, to change there should be an IT zoc not contested, which is not the case.

Had it been FR instead, then yes. It would have changed to the Conqueror. Maybe that is the case?

Joseignacio wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2025 9:10 am

paulderynck wrote: Tue Jul 01, 2025 10:10 pm The mystery to me from the picture is how the Italian units got to where they are?

Not knowing what is in Bordeaux besides the build points, makes me reluctant to express an opinion, but from what I can see, if there is no CW unit in Bordeaux, it should be controlled by the power that installed Vichy. There are both CW and Italian ZoC on it.

Why should it be controlled by the power that installed Vichy?

I assume the hex was CW. If so, to change there should be an IT zoc not contested, which is not the case.

Had it been FR instead, then yes. It would have changed to the Conqueror. Maybe that is the case?

Because before Vichy (or conquest) the hex can not be CW controlled as it must either be French or captured by Axis. Previously French hexes taken by Axis gets returned to France if a CW unit liberates that hex (I think MWIF does it this way anyway).

Thus, the only way that Bordeaux should be CW controlled is if CW has a unit in Bordeaux during Vichy creation. French units in Bordeaux, or the Italian ZOC, should do the trick and transfer the hex to German control if there are no CW forces in Bordeaux,

Hey guys, really appreciate and hope you continue the discussions. I'm learning a lot. I wanted to show you a picture of France; just prior to Vichy being installed by Germany. I hope this clarifies some confusion introduced by me. The Italian forces adjacent to Bordeaux after Vichy was installed was result of the "displacement" of non-French forces inside of Vichy to the "closest" location not Vichy.

FYI. To be exact, the picture shown is right before the end of the turn happens. Prior to Vichy, the French spent the 1 oil in Bordeaux and added 4 BPs (for a total of 6) during production. Then Vichy was installed.

rkr1958 wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2025 3:25 pm I hope this clarifies some confusion introduced by me.

Yes. It does. Thank you.

The Italian forces adjacent to Bordeaux after Vichy was installed was result of the "displacement" of non-French forces inside of Vichy to the "closest" location not Vichy.

That can not possibly be a correct application of the rules of engagement. Immediately opens the rules to check the relevant passages.

The steps as I see it are as follows. (after checking relevant rules)

1) Vichy is created.
2) Control of French hexes are now transferred, The four hexes in the Bayonne-Bordeaux area are now transferred to CW.
- Bordeaux
- SW Bordeaux
- SE Bordeaux
- Bayonne
3) The Italians in Vichy territory are now relocated to the nearest Axis controlled hex.

Thus, the Italians SE of Bordeaux is a bug that severely weakens the CW position.

Relevant rules for this order can be produced, and argued in favour for, if so desired.

Orm wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2025 3:43 pm The steps as I see it are as follows. (after checking relevant rules)

1) Vichy is created.
2) Control of French hexes are now transferred, The four hexes in the Bayonne-Bordeaux area are now transferred to CW.
- Bordeaux
- SW Bordeaux
- SE Bordeaux
- Bayonne
3) The Italians in Vichy territory are now relocated to the nearest Axis controlled hex.

Thus, the Italians SE of Bordeaux is a bug that severely weakens the CW position.

Relevant rules for this order can be produced, and argued in favour for, if so desired.

Oh my goodness. You're correct! This significantly affects some plans I had for the 1st axis impulse with fine weather across the map of the next turn. I need to go back to Vichy creation and make things right!

rkr1958 wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2025 7:12 pm

Orm wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2025 3:43 pm The steps as I see it are as follows. (after checking relevant rules)

1) Vichy is created.
2) Control of French hexes are now transferred, The four hexes in the Bayonne-Bordeaux area are now transferred to CW.
- Bordeaux
- SW Bordeaux
- SE Bordeaux
- Bayonne
3) The Italians in Vichy territory are now relocated to the nearest Axis controlled hex.

Thus, the Italians SE of Bordeaux is a bug that severely weakens the CW position.

Relevant rules for this order can be produced, and argued in favour for, if so desired.

Oh my goodness. You're correct! This significantly affects some plans I had for the 1st axis impulse with fine weather across the map of the next turn. I need to go back to Vichy creation and make things right!

I've got an interesting situation here ...
Given the "bug" and my planning based on this bug; I can actually improve the axis situation relative to my plan if I go back and displace the Italian and German units with this "bug" fixed. In effect, since the axis won the initiative, elected to move first and got fine weather across the map the "bug" with the Italian units near Bordeaux is not significant. However; if the allies had won the initiative or the weather had be storm or blizzard then it certainly would have been.

To be correct, though it doesn't matter in this rare case, I did displace the offending Italian units 1 or 2 hexes and changed control of the hex adjacent to Bordeaux to CW control.

I would have demanded a re-roll if I had that possibility as CW in a similar situation. Huge difference here who goes first.

Anyway, it does make a difference with the Italians moved even if Axis go first as it cost them land moves to take that hex.

Shouldn't the CW 6-6 MECH in the Kola peninsula be in supply?

The weather is fine, it is three hexes from a port, and has CPs all the way back to UK. What am I missing? Or is it a bug? If so, I hope it resolves by restarting the MWIF.

Looks like a bug to me. 3 hexes +1 away from Primary in Fine, and with convoy chain. No enemy zocs, no desert hexes, no impassable hexes...

rkr1958 wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2025 7:12 pm

Orm wrote: Wed Jul 02, 2025 3:43 pm The steps as I see it are as follows. (after checking relevant rules)

1) Vichy is created.
2) Control of French hexes are now transferred, The four hexes in the Bayonne-Bordeaux area are now transferred to CW.
- Bordeaux
- SW Bordeaux
- SE Bordeaux
- Bayonne
3) The Italians in Vichy territory are now relocated to the nearest Axis controlled hex.

Thus, the Italians SE of Bordeaux is a bug that severely weakens the CW position.

Relevant rules for this order can be produced, and argued in favour for, if so desired.

Oh my goodness. You're correct! This significantly affects some plans I had for the 1st axis impulse with fine weather across the map of the next turn. I need to go back to Vichy creation and make things right!

Yes, my previous comments were in the line that (for some reason) Bordeaux was previously CW controlled, and so it would not switch control just because of being in an IT zoc, since it is not uncontested. Here is why.

That's why I said:

Had it been FR instead, then yes. It would have changed to the Conqueror. Maybe that is the case?

Had it been without a CW unit, it would have been as Paul says. Since it had a CW unit that we didnt see it is as I said.

Orm wrote: Thu Jul 03, 2025 5:45 am I would have demanded a re-roll if I had that possibility as CW in a similar situation. Huge difference here who goes first.

Anyway, it does make a difference with the Italians moved even if Axis go first as it cost them land moves to take that hex.

I did displace the Italian and they do have the movement to get in position to attack the hex; but only because it's a rare fine weather impulse during Nov/Dec 1940 turn. Basically, it was the only set of less likely conditions (~20 to 25%) that made this bug irrelevant.

Orm wrote: Thu Jul 03, 2025 7:06 am Shouldn't the CW 6-6 MECH in the Kola peninsula be in supply?

The weather is fine, it is three hexes from a port, and has CPs all the way back to UK. What am I missing? Or is it a bug? If so, I hope it resolves by restarting the MWIF.
MECH in Kola.jpg

I agree. The CW mech corps should be in supply. What happens if you close and reopen the game file? Also, one thing to check is an earlier version (e.g., 3.2.0). I've found that some regression supply bugs have crept in between 3.2.0 and later versions. This might be the case too.